It is 4am 2-4 and the game is wild, 8 handed with a routine straddle to 8-16 and has been at 64 on regular occasions.
Hero is on the bb in this hand, and the straddle to 16 is on.
Hero has 1400 infront of him and is early 30s white guy with a taggy image,
Folds to the button: V1 who is difficult to describe, he's a reg and has a maniac image and is a total pre-flop lunatic bit when the big money goes in he always seems to turn up with the goods. He has a bankroll that crushes almost everyone and always wants to make the game bigger. Hero suspects he is beating the game at a decent rate and uses his image to generate action for when he has it. Will often blind raise pre flop 20x and do mad stuff like that but has clearly exceptional post flop ability,tough to play against.
Playing around 3000
V1 calls in the button
Sb folds
Hero on bb has 88 and flats (the straddle to 16 is from a guy who is down 4k on the night, is steamed, just lost a big pot and is about to jam his last 240 in with any two cards) Hero is planning on calling his shove.
V2 on the 8 straddle flats.
This is an older wg who is very gambley, hero gets in well with him and generally exploits his bad play, he is a fish no question, borderline whale in this game, utg that probably does him a disservice as he is not terrible, but easily exploitable.
Playing around 1200
V3 dumps it in for 256 as hero suspected he would (atc here)
V1 on the button thinks asks for a count and then calls....have seen him.do this tanking and then asking for a count when he has got it and when he hasn't so no.real live tell here.
Back to hero with my 88. I can call leaving me in an really dumb spot on the flop, I can fold which just seems far to nitty vs the ranges I'm up against here or I can jam
Here elects to jam expecting V1 to fold what was likely a coin flip vs hero
V2 snap calls and hero knows he is owned....
V1 tanks and calls

Any way we can play this differently? I just can't see folding as ever correct vs atc and what will be a pretty wide calling range from V1.... Calling just seems awful because of the amount of times we Check fold Flop.....

I would go ahead and raise this the first time around, probably in the 65-70 range. We are not really strong enough for the lrr here and if we wait for V3 to shove, that is essentially what we are doing. Even though nothing essentially changes, I think people will play more straightforward with the added raise in there.

You may be OK here against ATC but "any two" but specifically ATC under the 8 because T9 is exactly like AK both are just flipping with 88 of only 11:10 dogs. When you talk about ATC it matters how high on the scale is your pair. If you have 22 and I have ATC of 43, well.. partner, as far as I'm concern I consider I have AK and call your shove and I will have the same result as the AK would

Ha-ha..., haha! 43, T9 and AK are equal pardners. It's that something?

You 88 is exactly in the middle of the herd. 6 cards under and 6 cards above. Now, which ATC is opponent got? - It doesn't work the way you think. Because in whole honesty, you cannot put villain on ATC under 8. Can you?

ATC under 8 and any pair under 8 will never make that move or call you and any pair above 8 have you crushed and any Broadway is just flipping. Where is your upside? .., wrf? You see, you got to understand this game at a deeper level before playing with money on cards.

Can you see now where the money are hidden in this game?
Can you solve the game? - (is Izmet Fekali still taking his morning coffee Downtown LV ...,?) ---(LOL)

Yes V3 is shoving atc, he did it without looking at his hand....and I didn't give a villan description of him because it makes no difference to this hand, he is always shoving, and everyone knows it before he shoves, he proceeds to do it blind....
Hence my limp - re-shove, but it is the secondary questions of V1 and V2 that makes the difference here, V3 is just hugely juicing the pot....

Oh, If that's the case I must say that this situation is a pure random gambling like slot-machine that I don't remember me ever be involved in this kind of environment at the table. And since 88 is exactly located in the middle of the starting table you for all practical purpose we are just 50/50. Not just about 50/50 but exactly at the cross roads because you got the same numbers combos of pairs 99+ over the 88 as well pair 77 or lower. Also all the combo of non pair hands of two-over cards above 88 is equal with combos of two under-cards to 88. This is if villain shoves with two dark cards.

I don't know, but I'm into dark gambling business and most importantly I don't like flipping because I'm not getting anything in return just pushing chips across the table. If I have 99+ I'm little bit above 50% of garbage vs. semi-garbage. But still 88 versus two dark cards.., wtf.. what's so interesting about that? - Did you figure out where your edge is coming from? - Are you OK with flipping two overs vs. 88?

That's my take on this whole situation because I'm sure I found where the money are hidden in this game. Anyway, I hope you win in your specific situations just described.
You may have a very small edge due to the fact the suited overs are a little closer to the flip. But the risk is not worth when you can sit and relax and make money other ways if you are playing in a low-cheap blind game there's where are tons of way to milk the weak players.

Here is the sims of what I'm talking about, But before I want to remind you of something very solid basic that carry a lot of cash: Let’s talk bluntly. In any poker game, being limit or NL, you absolutely can’t win, no matter how smart you are and no matter how well you play, if you don’t get good cards and good flops. And a 88 vs. two dark cards is pure gambling at it's worse with no good flops. Being in the middle of starting hands table and calling a shove for $250... wtf? - You must be printing money at home ... (LOL)

This first table no dude will EVER do what you described unless the villain is suicidal. Not a sane dude shove with 77- or 76-

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

1,191,763,584 trials (Exhaustive)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
88	82.81%	981,139,884	11,543,784
77-,76-	17.19%	199,079,916	11,543,784

In this somebody with 99+, T9+ where you are losing.

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

1,191,763,584 trials (Exhaustive)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
88	42.51%	504,037,728	5,194,944
99+,T9+	57.49%	682,530,912	5,194,944

In the last table as I said before you go against all Broadways and 99+
and losing even more like 40:60 dog. Is that what you want?

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

1,027,382,400 trials (Exhaustive)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
88	40.82%	417,220,896	4,374,084
99+,JT+	59.18%	605,787,420	4,374,084

And if the opponent has all suited Broadways JTs+ and 99+ you are 30:70 dog

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

534,238,848 trials (Exhaustive)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
88	28.81%	152,735,160	2,351,532
99+,JxTx+	71.19%	379,152,156	2,351,532

^if you think 88 is the middle starting hand I feel sorry for you, 88 is comfortably top 15% of starting hands.

88 in exactly in a middle or the entire table of two-card hands. Has the same number above and bellow. So, where is #8 in a 13 items row?

Is the villain shoving ATC the original statement? So, he could have 23o or AA.
How many pairs are above or bellow 88? and how many two cards combo with over-cards to 88 or two cards combo with two-cards under 88?

Exactly in the goddamned center of the universe. That's why the sims show what you don't like because destroys the little hope most people have. Oh, I see, you are looking at 88 from the wrong perspective for that move. That's the mistake most people do and as long as they make that mistake they cannot get to the bulk money.

A very simple question: From what part of the entire table you think some villain will shove? From cards above 8 or bellow 8? - pairs above 88 or bellow, -unpaired cards bellow 76 or above like all the way into the Broadways?

-So where the nugget is located? - Didn't you figure out yet?
Don't you want people to call you a lucky player instead a skillful one according to their standard of skill? - Use your advanced skills to become lucky in theirs eyes.

Show Izmet Fekali what you can do and make him proud. I mean it. No BS.

Ugh, these suck. The main point for folding I can give is that 2 other players flatted expecting the 16 straddle to shove. Seems like V2 (8 straddle) can be wide here b/c he just initially flats for 8 more and can then see how V1 and you react.

Altho V2 was the snap call, V1 (button) is the one who would have scared me more. He flatted twice. The second time for 256 with 2 people to act who have expressed some interest in calling an expected all-in.

So I dunno what I would have done in your shoes but with enough time to think about it I'm not sure 88 is that good here.

You are perfectly correct and right.
88 is not good here

And this is so simple. Here is the solution:

88 vs 99+, AKo/AKs is in bad shape and the same shape against 99+, T9o/T9s
There's no difference. So we can say that any pair above 8 and any two unpaired cards above 8 is 99+,AK vs 88. Now who's the respected player that take that challenge to go against an overpair or AK. Any unpaired two cards above 8 are all AK in disguise.

T9 = AK when facing 88 and so on and on and on ... on ...on .. in little steps over the field until we stumble on something worth of gold that nobody is aware.

raise the first time around to better define the ranges of the other players if they get involved IMO. You don't really want anyone else to come along in this spot, and your UTG raise should give pause to other thinking players. if you raise to 65, straddle shoves, and V1 still comes along, it's a much different situation than the one you outlined.

I would fold or flat the shove as played but probably just fold. If you know that V3 is shoving ATC, the other 2 villains probably know it as well, so you really don't know anything about their ranges, and they are both pretty much uncapped.

Your mistake was thinking too much about playing V3's range and not enough about who else is in the hand. The thing is, as you note, both V1 and V2 are aware that V3 is going to shove also. They are not in the hand with cards that can't call that shove. Your hand doesn't do well against the combined range for V1 and V2.

V1 might have called before V3 shoved fairly light, expecting you and V2 to fold. When you don't he has a much tougher decision after V3 shoves. But his range for calling V3's shove has to be fairly strong because he knows that at least one of you is calling also.

V2 might even be more worrying when he calls. He knows V3 is going to shove and there are 2 other people interested in the pot already. What he will plays in general is very villain dependent. Some fish V2's will call with marginal hands hoping that V1 and you fold to the shove, others will play fishing hands expecting to go to the flop 4 ways for a huge pot. But even fishy players will trap here with AA/KK and some will call/shove wider hoping to get heads up with some marginal hands vs V3's ATC range.

It seems fairly absurd but the best thing to do is to fold when V1 calls the shove preflop. You are probably slightly ahead of V1's range but in a situation where you can't really make money. Both preflop and after the flop V1 is only calling bets you make with hands that beat you or have good equity. Add in the small chance V2 is trapping or flat call with a better pair and the situation as a whole is -EV for you.

In general raising to begin with would be best. You have a hand that does well if it gets heads up against V3 but poorly if anybody else is involved. If you raise and V1/V2 come over the top you can safely fold.

Yes V3 is 100% atc, he shoved blind, and we all knew before that was what he would do.
V2 at the time didn't concern me to much, v1 was always the concern for me, I know he will what he would say is 'gamble with v3' and after limping I would never expect him to fold to this shove,
This is the reason I am jammed,
When I shove I am really looking for V1 and V2 to fold....
I would expect them to fold a decent % especially V2.

Knowing the hands from showdown I know how the hand plays if I raise so lets hypothesise.... I raise to 50.... V2 flats, V3 shoves for 256, v1 flats hero?......easy fold?

OK, you can jam your 88 but will lose in the long run even against that dude you think he's ATC 100% That it means he could have 23o or AA? The entire spectrum? - I don't think so! - The variance it's gonna be into the outer space. But I guess it's out there in the world of poker some new strategy based on variance. They theorize that you can beat the game by skillfully handle the variance .. How you like that? - Is that something worth to be alive? (LOL)

Who's gonna call it's gonna be above 8 for sure and in that situation you lose. No matter how hard you try to slice the cake and grab the bigger piece it doesn't work the way you tell us. I don't know because I wasn't there but the situation is so out of this world that I shouldn't have got involved in the first place. It has nothing to do with my poker experience and training over the years.

I'm still cool .., man ..

Do we have fold equity if we jam? If no I wait for a better spot - if we do - high variance jam, but probably profitable????

Any high variance play is not highly profitable over the long run. And because we don't get to see the long run we either think you make great plays when we win or blame the loss on variance or bad luck. So, the time passes and other hands come into play that puts us in the fog of game. What we remember is the times when we blow away a tight player out of a pot by bluffing with the best hand by the way, probably .., (LOL) and not wanting to remember the waste we spread along the way when we bluff like FoS ..

Many people think cash poker live is too much like TV poker. It's not. Good poker is dull and predictable. Live cash is much more like bingo than you think. You're not going to make money by making slick plays and elaborate bluffs. You do make money by playing smart, in position, and value betting solid mage hands. And if you play how I just described the variance is the lowest point. I'm not advocating to runaway from variance because it's impossible but at least don't create var by "free spirit bluffing". I'm not saying not to bluff if you know how to setup a play but to shove as a bluff without a story and a deep understanding of the game it's not what this game is all about.

Yeah, fold, we now know that V2 likes his hand a lot. We can be pretty sure we do not get the folds we need from a jam.

Umm 88 vs a random hand is a massive favorite. Around 80% of the time he will have 1 over, 2 unders, or a smaller pair. So only 20% of the time will he have 2 overs or a bigger pair. Equilab confirms this as it shows 88 is a 69.16% favorite over a random hand.

The problem is other people start calling the shove and our hand goes way down in value. Dumping 1400 trying to isolate w/ 88 after somebody already called and still action behind is pretty spewy IMO.

Wow Outdonked, you are wrong on so many levels"Any high variance play is not highly profitable over the long run?' seriously....any profitable play is profitable over the long run... low variance does not equal high profitability and in many cases the exact opposite is true. I once sat down with an Armenian doctor who went on tilt and started open shoving $300(max buy in at 1-2 Mgm) and i watched as every OMC sat around me folding Ak off because "its a drawing hand" while i called with a slightly tightened 55 percent plus (if heads up). I won 2.5k plus in a half hour and got an invite to Dr.'s home hame,while no one else finished up.Not only wee my player high variance... A-9 off vs literally any 2 is 60.79-30.21, which means i made $182.37 everytime i made my "high variance' play.Plus the added equity of being known as a gambler, ever though i ran the equities of this long before.Short answer, look up the math and stop being such a nit, no gamble no future.

Ha..ha..ha ...Mr. $5k/hour -- You got no future in this game. I can see it.

You won 2.5k in half hour but it's not sustainable. Also your high variance plays when executed are very close within each other between you and your opponent. For example: If you are not sure 100% what your villain hand is but let's say you suspect he may have QQ or AK while you have AKs. The correct but not so profitable would be for you to shove and hope he folds more than 50% of the time. Very high variance play with very low profit. In a 51/49 variance play villains moves big quantities of chips in and out of the game, players trading chips between but the end result is a minuscule 2 chips profit over the very very long run that you forget the details but remember winning 2.5K after say 3 encounters during one night when you won, lost and won and left for home for good reasons of being tired. Very high variance 3 plays with net result of you taking home 2.5K for now. Only to come back tomorrow in the same setup but not sustainable because the next time you may as well lose, win and lose the 3rd time accomplishing absolutely nothing. Doing this ting over and over you'll net a small change of $$ difference between 51% - 49%

You are practically under the illusion that your little 2.5K in half an hour is the result of your highly skilled play but is not. That result is due to variance and it will be the other way around in reverse next time. (LOL)

But I can see from your attitude post that you know much more and have way way more experience ... , so I'm asking you: Are you playing professionally and manage to make 5k/hour? - OMG, .. wtf? .. Ha ha ha, A9 for shoves? ...,You and what Army?

This is some of worst advice I have seen in long time.

88 vs ATC

88 is a 70% favorite. We should be fist pump getting it in vs ATC, 100% of time.

Problem with this specific hand is we have 2 other players in hand. Given fact that OR is going to jam. I think we need to raise or fold pre. To many bad spots by just limping and waiting for Straddle to shove.



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My dear pardner,
I don't blame you for not understanding. Anyway ...

Sure if villains is 100% ATC from 32o to AA but that's never the case. You obviously don't understand the depth of what I'm saying. No other but a suicidal villain will shove 2 cards under 8 from 77- or 76- all the way down to 22 or 32

If he's playing any two cards above 8 you are losing and here is the proof of villain having 99+, T9+

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

1,191,763,584 trials (Exhaustive)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
88	42.51%	504,037,728	5,194,944
99+, T9+	57.49%	682,530,912	5,194,944

And if he's playing 99+ and only any Broadway he's got a bigger edge

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

1,027,382,400 trials (Exhaustive)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
88	40.82%	417,220,896	4,374,084
99+, JT+	59.18%	605,787,420	4,374,084

Only if he's playing the way you would like it any 2 cards 7 or less like 77-, 76- down to 22 and 32 you got the edge but we all competent players know that's not realistic. We don't live in the Dreamland like may others. ...,wtf? (LOL)
Here is your victory over ATC under 8

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

1,191,763,584 trials (Exhaustive)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
88	82.81%	981,139,884	11,543,784
77-, 76-	17.19%	199,079,916	11,543,784

But on the other hand this is so advanced depth concept into the core of NL that not many dudes are able to understand and incorporate it into their game strategy in order to find where the money are hidden. But the truth is my playing model for NL flies in the face of traditional TAG /LAG style. The unique strategy is a result of some serious analytical efforts on my part. It wasn't stumbled upon, it was in fact consciously constructed.

More's the pity, pardner .., More's the pity

I have good reading comprehension.

You are changing ranges from a 100% ATC range, to showing a 14% card range is completely different. He is not jamming 14% of time here. His range is super wide. Maybe 80% maybe true 100%, maybe 60%....

All of those ranges leave 88 as massive favorite.

Putting in a range of 14% (that you made up) into a calculator. Doesn't back up your statements by any means of the conversation.

100% range is not anywhere close to a reckless 14% range. In terms of equity.

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No, I'm not changing. I am being realistic.

No body in the universe is playing or let alone shoving 100% ATC. What are you talking about .., man? When dudes come here on 2+2 and claim this or that villain shoves ATC they don't know or don't have experience with how the game is played. I repeat again just for you to understand: No poker player alive is shoving with 32o+, or 22+ from the worse 32o to AA the entire spectrum of two card combos. If you don't believe this but believe the opposite that weak dudes play ATC you are mistaken again. They may play some garbage but not ATC. This term of ATC is just for academic discussions, in reality it never happen.

However, we cannot afford on talking about noting for nothing nonsense typical to some poker players that want to have it both ways. People mention villain's ATC and justify how well they play with 88 is like "nonsense makes sense" philosophy of Charles Manson talk.

Magically you select a range where he is jamming 109o, but not 98o, or A2o, or k8s.

Your ranges are useless in any form of discussion for this hand.

Seen lots of guys jam short stacks without looking at cards. Been known to do it myself.

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