A few months ago someone started a thread and asked if you can win at poker without hitting hands. Here are a few examples from last 2 sessions

1) 6 handed. I open to $20 UTG with Ac4c. UTG+1 makes it $50. I call. $450 effective.
Flop Th8h4h. Check/check
Turn Kh. I lead $50. He folds JJ face up. It was clear he didnt have a heart when he didnt bet the flop.

2) 2 limps. I raise to $25 with 3s2s. UTG OMC reraises to $50. I call HU.
Flop Ac4s8d. He bets $40. I min raise to $80. Its pretty obvious an OMC limp/min reraising preflop has AA/KK so I risked $80 to win the $140 pot. If he calls I surrender unless I hit the gutshot. He curses his luck, shows his neighbor his cards and folds. KK obviously.

3) Weak tight guy with a serious sizing tell opens to $15. I 3 bet to $55 with 5c6c to isolate him knowing I can steal most pots postflop. He calls HU.
Flop Jc8h7d. He check/calls $50.
Turn Jd. He checks. I bet $90. He folds Ac8c face up.

I knew he had a weakish hand when he opened to $15. A8s cant stand much heat.

This is more of a PSA than anything, showing you can win without a hand but feel free to discuss the individual hands if you like.

'I went card dead so I couldn't win' or 'I just aren't getting hands' are things which frustrate me most in poker. Obviously there are times where there's virtually nothing you can do but fold (92 in MP for example) but there are SOOOOO many exploitative spots against so many villains at LLSNH, and I feel that finding those really separates the men from the boys; from the ABC's to the solid winners.

First, this Kind of comes off as straight bragging.

Second, of course you can win without a hand if you can pick your spots well. It's just a whole lot easier to win when you actually can value bet too.

OK, call it bragging, but anytime someone who is good at something tells someone else about it (coaching) it could be considered bragging.

People constantly complain about not hitting hands, being card dead, how the tables are so nitty nowadays..ect. You can sit back and complain or do something about it. Of course if you actually hit some big hands, you will have a much easier time.

This seems like just a brag post, and think 2 hands have pretty bad mistakes pre.

Hand 2 seems really, really bad pre, especially for a brag post. How deep are you? 32s is just a fold first time. Once he min-raises you pre it's a fold again (how often are you going to out flop him?) The problem is that if he has AA/KK only, you need to outflop him or hit an ace and hope he doesn't have AA or that he doesn't have AK in his min-raise range. I doubt that happens often enough to justify putting in the extra $25 pre. Flop is fine given your read, but I'd probably make it $100 if you're giving up if called. He could just tilt-call your min raise on the flop with "ace magnets".

Think the call pre in hand 1 is pretty bad as well, especially out of position.

Hand 3 is fine.

I do agree there are definitely spots one can bluff in LLSNL. My general rules are no bluffing in multi-way pots without equity, and no floating multi way or OOP. I will often semi-bluff quite liberally, especially against a c-bet from someone who's capped to an overpair. I'll also sometime bluff without equity, but try to limit it. Other than c-bets, if I'm bluffing without equity it's because (I) I'm the PFR, and I'm double barreling the turn on a scare card, (ii) I'm floating the PFR in position and PFR checks the turn, or (iii) I got to the river with a draw that whiffed and need to bluff to win the pot.

How can you be OK 3 betting 56s but not be OK raising 2 limpers with 23s?

A couple reasons:

1. In my game, a raise to $25 over two limpers is getting at least two callers (neither of the two limpers are folding) and very likely more, and often I'll end up in a big, multi-way pot, maybe with someone to act after me, and 3 high. A 3-bet to 55 over a PFR when no one else has voluntarily put money into the pot is much more likely to take it down pre or at worst end up head's up with the PFR against whom you have position. A bit hard to evaluate the 3-bet though without knowing what position you're in and what position the PFR is in. I like it much more from the BTN or CO than in early or mid-position.
2. You have a sizing tell on the PFR when you 3-bet.

Fair enough. I play in one room where I would never do this because like you say, I will get too many callers. However, this is a daytime game with in a room with lots of older guys. I raise these hands to whatever amount will normally get 0-2 callers. I know my game and $25 will get it HU most of the time. Obviously I wasnt expecting a min reraise, but I cant fold for $25 when the pot is already $85 and I have position on a predictable OMC.

(talking about the 23s hand)

Wow this totally changed my game. Thanks, coach Mike!

I had no idea there was such a thing as bluffing in poker.

:grunch:

Define "hitting a hand". When I think of "getting a hand" I don't think about getting dealt AA with action in front only, I think about getting hands that I can rep a made hand with, or steal from LP. That includes things like suited aces and connectors.

When I think "man I didn't get a hand all session" it's folding stuff like Q2o and 93s, or raising with 66, getting 4 callers to an AKT flop and seeing a bet and 2 raises in front.

1) Assuming $2/5 is a pretty standard open, maybe a call depending on the V, and a good bluffing spot (ie a hand).

2) Marginal pre. Post flop it depends on if he's the type to check his KK or bet/fold it. Meh.

3) Again, I'd call this a hand. You have SCs and a spot to ISO a bad player. Then you flop an OESD to go along with your FE.

It's good to brag you won without having a hand, but these plays are all horrible money burning spew. Especially the 3rd one, 3betting a nit with 56.

Trust me, you should not be coaching poker. Anyone who wants to take their game seriously should defiantly refrain from any of this fish on a heater's "advice".

/IBL

To answer the question in the thread title, yes you can win pots by bluffing.

Shush, Mike plays a different "style" and his results clearly indicate that we're all idiots for not bombing every pot with trash.

I think what's really going on is that his day $2/5 game is really nitty and filled with OMCs that don't adjust to aggression and continue to fold *way* too much. So his game conditions where these questionable plays seem to be working for him over the still somewhat short term are vastly different from what almost all of the rest of us encounter.

There are maybe 2 people I've ever met where the minraise in hand 2 gets a fold.

Hand 1 I know plenty that will fold, but plenty that will check a D OTF too. Or call off with a set.

+1. Seems fairly obvious. Not sure why it took op a few months to figure this out

I don't think anyone ever argued that you couldn't win the occasional pot / pad your winrate by bluffing in the right spots.

Overall though, it's still mostly a game revolving around getting value from your hands when you have a better one than your opponents, getting out of hands when you have a worst one than your opponents, and doing both of these better than your opponents.

Gordoyoudisagree?G

And when OMC's 4bet you, flatting with trash trying to hit the board is even worse spew!

hand 1 and hand 2 just look pretty bad play to me.

hand 3 is slightly better than first two.

It just seem to me that your player pool is really soft or you just got very lucky in those spots.

Yes you can but only orphaned pots and in general only bluffing in small pots when opponent has some insignificant holding like bottom pair or an under-pair. No matter how good you are you still need a hand to play your skill. The the major skill you can have is to lure opponent into calling with the second best. Get a hand first and have him calling when you want a call.

In live games, you win money by doubling up or busting people. Anything else makes you fall victim to the rake/tips etc ..., at a rate of about $15-20/hour. So, if you manage to break even on your money that is because some other players pay your share of rake/tips/drinks/valet ...etc

The person who started that thread was me, and these are not good examples.

You did hit hands as you hit equity and your plays all worked because they didn't have a good enough hand to continue or they made a mistake.

1. Had the player in 1st hand bet the flop he wins. Your call pre was really bad.

2. Hand 2 - come on man. He didn't 3bet correctly and also check folds an A high flop with KK? If you did that vs any one competent you would be burning money.

3. Hand 3 - This is a decent play - I can get behind this logic.

None of these plays would of worked where I play. I have over aggressive maniacs who wouldn't fold any of these hands. I don't know where you play, but there is no way in hell I would get any one to fold.

No.

Raising and flopping draws is basically making a hand tho

the answer to the question is no:

hand 1: a 4 card flush on board with no action after pre-flop is a great spot for you. congrats on finding the bet, but it's not hard to find the bet. it is hard to catch 4flush runouts that your opponent doesn't have.

hand 2: you got an Ahi flop again KK. was that skill? I'm fine with the 32s call in a vacuum if you can range him as exactly AA/KK but ultimately if you're raise/calling 32s there what exactly are you folding?

hand 3: well-played though obv you had some serious RIO in this hand. in a vacuum that's a horrible bluff though.

All hands are massive spew and masssively -EV. The fact that you got these favorable board runouts to bluff on and the fact they actually folded was luck.

Almost every post here you post on 2+2 is just you bragging about yourself now or being a dick to others. I wouldn't say you were modest when you first started out, but now you're just arrogant and condescending.

Teach me your ways, coach Mike. Beating able to beat 2/5 is such a big, big accomplishment. I wish I could do that.

+1.

Jeez, I didn't know bluffing existed in poker.

Thanks for stating the ****ing obvious.

I think many in the forum know that they can bluff against a single player who shows weakness. This thread is really just troll bait, so I'm locking it.