Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
can you get away from this overpair? can you get away from this overpair?

02-10-2012 , 10:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaUlater
Well that's the thing, there might not be such raise size.
There is a "size" and it's at every table. It just differs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaUlater
Essentially what you want is 1 or 2 spews that will call 10BB raises and rest will call 6BB, but fold to 10BB. I'll be surprised if such dynamic happens often if at all, especially if it's a game of regulars.
Again, it does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaUlater
Another caveat is that if your goal is to thin the field with bigger pre-flop raises, SPR will always be lower. So you're often stuck in awkward spots post-flop, and naturally unless effective is deep, you won't be able to make these "thin the field" raises wide.
The bigger we have to raise, the smaller the SPR gets. True. So, we focus on power hands that play well in 2 and 3 handed pots. Hands that hit TPTK+ often and are hard to outdraw because you will make it costly. When SPR's are so short, these hands are hard to play incorrectly....thus making the bigger raises correct and easy to play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaUlater
If you're not making these raises wide, then you would probably only be making raises 2 or 3 times an hour, and these spews that would call 10BB would probably run out of chips between those hands, or they simply fold their hands knowing how tight you are.
So? More spews typically take their places. It's cash game poker. I have all night. I'm not in a race to win the fishes money....if the situation doesn't present itself correctly. That's being a spew, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaUlater
Btw, my response was under the impression that dgiharris was looking for "pain threshold" that would make these guys fold, not the maximum they would call with worst hands.
Maybe so. But, dgi is looking to raise the maximum amount to get a caller or two with his powerful hands. He isn't looking for the maximum amount to get 7 callers. That you save for AXs or mid pp's, in position, if you dare.
can you get away from this overpair? Quote
02-10-2012 , 11:08 PM
I'll just respond to comments that actually made sense rather than just saying there is such thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chopper5654
The bigger we have to raise, the smaller the SPR gets. True. So, we focus on power hands that play well in 2 and 3 handed pots. Hands that hit TPTK+ often and are hard to outdraw because you will make it costly. When SPR's are so short, these hands are hard to play incorrectly....thus making the bigger raises correct and easy to play.
We miss the board 75% of the times, so the only time above statement apply is merely that remaining 25%.

Our edge as better players is post-flop, so I actually don't agree that low SPR benefit us as better players, but rather the other way around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chopper5654
So? More spews typically take their places. It's cash game poker. I have all night. I'm not in a race to win the fishes money....if the situation doesn't present itself correctly. That's being a spew, too.
Well, if you think there are that many super spewers, then I guess we can agree to disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chopper5654
Maybe so. But, dgi is looking to raise the maximum amount to get a caller or two with his powerful hands. He isn't looking for the maximum amount to get 7 callers. That you save for AXs or mid pp's, in position, if you dare.
Did you actually read what I said?
can you get away from this overpair? Quote
02-10-2012 , 11:22 PM
Your first and last sentences are laced with antagonism and egotism. So, I can agree to disagree and move on, too.
can you get away from this overpair? Quote
02-10-2012 , 11:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chopper5654
Your first and last sentences are laced with antagonism and egotism. So, I can agree to disagree and move on, too.
I put in some thoughts in my comment, and I would appreciate if you had done the same.
can you get away from this overpair? Quote
02-10-2012 , 11:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDunePariah
Are either of these statements implying that I should not have bet so much with the cbet, essentially committing myself? You aren't suggesting I check this flop here, are you? If so, please explain.
You've got a medium overpair. By my count you are only getting a little better than 2-1 to call here, not 2.5-1, which changes the equity you need with two cards to come from 28.6% to 33%, it's not a huge difference but it DOES matter.

If the V is pushing a draw you're actually a small favorite, no matter how big his draw is. You're actually a 51-49 favorite over 8c6c and AcKc. Against a flush draw with just one overcard (i.e. AcTc) you are a 3-2 favorite. Given that you have already seen him play draws passively I'd discount this possibility.

If he's got you beaten you are a HUGE underdog. Against 55 you're a 5-1 dog. Against a random 7 you are a 10.6-1 dog.

If you're ahead because he's holding a smaller pair you are almost an 11-1 favorite.

His check raise line indicates some strength. Since you are such a big dog if you are losing you need to ask yourself how likely is his play with the hands you are ahead of? We have already seen him play draws passively so he's probably not holding one. If he has a hand were are so far behind the most likely ones that take this line I would fold. I know almost everyone else has said this is an easy call but I honestly believe this is a situation where if you are ahead it's only slightly and if you are behind you are crushed.

I'd like to make one last note about your comment regarding possibly checking here. Checking is NOT a bad play. A medium sized overpair is NOT a great hand in a multiway pot when the board offers lots of draws. Think for a second about how many cards you are dodging. As, Ks, Qs, 4s and 9s, any club. And those are just the obvious ones. In this hand both the players behind you folded. If either one had shown interest you could easily be in a worse spot than you are now. Checking the flop is very far from a horrible play. It keeps the pot small with a hand that isn't very strong. It gives you a chance to evaluate action behind you without commiting yourself. Most importantly the turn card will dramatically alter your hand's equity. On a blank turn, especially if the flop checks through, you are most likely best and can proceed confidently. If a bad card hits you can get away from your weakish hand at a minimum loss.
can you get away from this overpair? Quote
02-10-2012 , 11:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkubus
You've got a medium overpair. By my count you are only getting a little better than 2-1 to call here, not 2.5-1, which changes the equity you need with two cards to come from 28.6% to 33%, it's not a huge difference but it DOES matter.

If the V is pushing a draw you're actually a small favorite, no matter how big his draw is. You're actually a 51-49 favorite over 8c6c and AcKc. Against a flush draw with just one overcard (i.e. AcTc) you are a 3-2 favorite. Given that you have already seen him play draws passively I'd discount this possibility.

If he's got you beaten you are a HUGE underdog. Against 55 you're a 5-1 dog. Against a random 7 you are a 10.6-1 dog.

If you're ahead because he's holding a smaller pair you are almost an 11-1 favorite.

His check raise line indicates some strength. Since you are such a big dog if you are losing you need to ask yourself how likely is his play with the hands you are ahead of? We have already seen him play draws passively so he's probably not holding one. If he has a hand were are so far behind the most likely ones that take this line I would fold. I know almost everyone else has said this is an easy call but I honestly believe this is a situation where if you are ahead it's only slightly and if you are behind you are crushed.

I'd like to make one last note about your comment regarding possibly checking here. Checking is NOT a bad play. A medium sized overpair is NOT a great hand in a multiway pot when the board offers lots of draws. Think for a second about how many cards you are dodging. As, Ks, Qs, 4s and 9s, any club. And those are just the obvious ones. In this hand both the players behind you folded. If either one had shown interest you could easily be in a worse spot than you are now. Checking the flop is very far from a horrible play. It keeps the pot small with a hand that isn't very strong. It gives you a chance to evaluate action behind you without commiting yourself. Most importantly the turn card will dramatically alter your hand's equity. On a blank turn, especially if the flop checks through, you are most likely best and can proceed confidently. If a bad card hits you can get away from your weakish hand at a minimum loss.
The problem here is that this isn't a tournament, it's a cash game and your hand is likely good on the flop and it is too large of an edge to pass up if you want to be a serious winner. The fact that there are a lot of bad turn cards is more of a reason to bet, not less.
can you get away from this overpair? Quote
02-11-2012 , 12:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11t
The problem here is that this isn't a tournament, it's a cash game and your hand is likely good on the flop and it is too large of an edge to pass up if you want to be a serious winner. The fact that there are a lot of bad turn cards is more of a reason to bet, not less.
The main issue here is that the pot is multi-way. The way the hand played out the OP was quite lucky that both players behind him folded. When you are dodging that many cards in a multi-way pot (assuming you are actually ahead) with a medium strength overpair like JJ you equity is going to change dramatically on the turn. One shouldn't pass up small edges for no reason, but if doing so will allow us to exploit a much larger edge on the turn then we have good reason to be cautious on the flop.
can you get away from this overpair? Quote

      
m