I remember Bart Hansen mentioned something like if a villain check-called the flop, check-called the turn, then lead huge on the river, he has a monster hand.

To all theories /general action lines, there must be some 'terms and conditions' that we also have to factor in, such as

• how short is his stack on the river

• how loose / bluffy is this V

• how strong is our hand to bluff-catch with,

• are we underrepped?

Back to the hand, Friday night vibe, 1/2, 8-handed.
MP limped, HJ raised to 12, hero saw 66 at CO and called.
BB called, limper folded. 3-way.

Flop(39): Ah 6d 3d
BB checked, HJ bet out 20, H called with middle set, BB tank called.

Turn (99): 7c
x, x, hero bet 55, only BB called. BB had 91 behind.

River(209) 2d
BB jammed his remaining 91.

OK I couldn't find a bluff hand that would take this line. If V had any two pair hand before river, would average population go to the jam mode OTR? But 91 is too cheap to fold anyway.

Not sure V's profile is of much use. V is black, aged around 25, wearing a designer cap. V seemed loose passive before this hand. V had taken this x-call, x-call, spaz line against me an hour before this hand, but i didn't have very much so it was an easy fold that time.

Shall we have a disciplined fold here or a sigh call?

Let's remember that Villain did not "lead huge" on the river. He "jammed" with 1/2 psb.

Although he may well have the rivered flush or the turned straight, I don't see why he can't be taking this same line with 33/A6/A3/A7.

Maybe any sane player with any of those hands wouldn't take this line? If I had two pairs OTF, surely it's a check-raise? If I unblock FD/SD, when straight gets there on the turn, flush gets there OTR, my two pairs / bottom set is a lot weaker, and am I going to value-own myself on the river?

Our opponent is some 1/2 rando who has 1/2 psb left on the river with a hand he's not folding. Lots of players here would just push their 1/2 pot stack.

I assume he's taking the day off from playing GTO...LOL at having the Villain think about hands he "unblocks."

P.S. Why are you being snide with the only person who has responded so far? Do you not want people to comment?

When you voice your opinion on 2+2, you should expect some other people to disagree and voice their own opinions, and surely you can defend yours. Shifting the blame to other's attitude only means you don't have confidence in your arguments.

Ignoring the GTO and blocker part, I don't think any two pair/bottom set takes this line because a player can be either too aggressive or too passive, but very unlikely you see V being overly passive on the flop and turn, and suddenly become overly aggressive when his hand get downgraded even more.

I have not seen enough population taking this line three streets with the value hands you mentioned, have you?

Usually one needs to have least 30 posts to opine about how things work on 2+2, in addition to openly act like a douche.

Which formally banned member are you?

Don't call pre, don't call flop, don't bet so small turn

Pre is a fold but you can v occasionally 3b. Then come on the are 3 ppl in the hand you need to build the pot and charge draws. River no clue as I wouldn't be there in a million years!

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It was a single raise pot, and 66 is a 3 bet or fold IP?

OTF I think it can be a mix of raise and call. On the hindsight raising could have been better.

Everything is a 3b or fold, except in the bb and maaaaybe the button

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Preflop seems good. You can't 3! everything. This hand plays well as a call and will likely go at least 3-way at 1/2.

You need to raise the flop with the flush draw out there.

BB tank called the flop. If he had a flush draw, was he tanking deciding whether to call or raise? I think 54 is the only straight and he should have bet or raised a straight on the turn with the 2-flush.

I would call getting 3-1, but not be happy with it. As others have implied, you really should not have left 1/2 pot on the river.

Can't imagine pre ever being a fold in a 1/2 game, where you very likely won't run into many squeezes (I know this is just an assumption and
I can’t be sure about this, but still).

I'd mostly just raise the flop and shove the turn with . I don't think they're folding an ace, and if they don't have an ace they’re most likely giving up on the turn anyway, so calling doesn’t achieve much. As played your bet is way too small on the turn in my opinion, especially when you wanna fold the river for less than half pot (which is probably correct here, because I also think he has a flush, but you should never have let him get there like this).

I think it's a big assumption. If true you can call maybe as an exploit but it's still not a great hand was has no real playability.... Either you hit it you don't, even IP. The theoretical play is to never call pre with any hand unless closing the action.

If you deviate is has to be because you think you can exploit as you said. But then op played the flop and turn badly, so what's the point of trying to exploit other people's post flop mistakes if you make the mistakes yourself

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I believe how the river card turned out has distorted the discussion into 'how to not let the big bind get there with a flush'? However if we knew neither villains was on a flush draw, or the third diamond didn't arrive on the river, would that hugely impact on our betting sizes? I don't think we should be as result oriented.

During the hand, until the end of the turn, I thought HJ would be the main villain instead of BB. I thought HJ was more likely to have a mid Aces hand, like A8-AJ, after he shut down on the turn. HJ and I were much deeper, so I wanted to give him a price he can't resist to fold right now, and we both had enough bullets on the river if he improves to trip or two pairs, and possibly more values to gain OTR even if he doesn't improve. In terms of BB, before I bet on the turn, his range certainly includes 88, 67, 55 these sort of the hand, which may not continue with a big charge, that's why I was surprised when BB called and HJ folded, I was left in a bad situation with his short remaining stack.

Although it's 1-2, assuming hands like AJ paying us three streets for top pair only? Nope, the hand is not played in the U.S. We are 'Euros'. What would normally happen if we bet large on the turn is that BB folded, and the HJ stranger gives you a faced up fold of AJ.

Welcome different thoughts.

It's not results oriented. It's just correct to raise the flop as he has so much ax that can call and flushes need to be charged especially multi way. You can then raise your own flush draws as bluffs

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I think calling and raising flop are both fine. Calling to let bb call with K3 and spike something he can go broke with is good. Sure he sometimes hits a gutter or diamonds like he did here but that’s poker.

I like betting bigger on turn when 2 players have shown interest.

When making the turn bet, I wanted to keep all the medium-weak aces in, and expected a check raise from two pairs or straight, which didn't happen.

During the hand I didn't expect BB to be the main villain. If we did bet larger, let's say 80, and bb called, we are basically committed to call the river because he would have even shorter left. That's the problem playing multi-way.

Stack sizes would be helpful. If HJ also had ~180, like BB, then no, not a fold to a 12 open at 1/2. We're IP, we're assuming the blinds aren't squeeze happy, and we're getting ~15/1 to set mine.

We don't always have to raise the flop when if we call, pot'll be ~100, V has 1.5 pot remaining, and 2 streets to get it.

(Edit, flip side is that main V was deeper than BB, and so, yes we probably do need raise flop then. Probably still going broke LOL when BB shoves their Ax flush draw)

AP, think this is a case of, are we always losing? Or just losing <75-80% of the time? I'm probably paying him off and congratulating him on the turn call.

We're getting 3:1 on a call. We only need to win 25% of the time. Maybe he jams 2P or worse sets, or Ax with the Ad. Maybe he likes to jam air on scary run-outs.

Don't see how we can fold a set here, after under-repping our hand on the flop, and sort of repping a straight on the turn.