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Call Turn Shove with Top Pair Good Kicker? Call Turn Shove with Top Pair Good Kicker?

08-14-2019 , 07:17 AM
1/2 NLHE (50bb Max)

Effective stack about $130

Hero is in the CO with QT and limps.
Button, SB and BB call.

Villain 1 in the SB is young white guy, barely 18. Hasn't been at table long
Villain 2 in the BB is a young asian guy. Plays quiet tight range, but folded a flush draw on the turn when he had great odds to call for a flush.
Villain 3 on the button is a spewtard, been playing way to many hands and limping with them. Called a raise with K2s, and tried to bluff on river when missed.

$8 pot, flop is...
T76
V1 checks, V2 leads for $15, hero re-raises to $45, V3 folds, V1 calls, V2 calls.

pot is $143, turn is...
3
SB thinks for a moment and then shoves AI for $80, BB folds

Hero to call or fold?
Call Turn Shove with Top Pair Good Kicker? Quote
08-14-2019 , 07:47 AM
Why the raise OTF?

AP, unless the game is extremely spewy, this is a pretty easy fold. SB lead-shoved into two players after cold-calling a flop overbet and raise. His range should be very strong here. I think it is 45 at least 60% of the time, and 2p/sets most of the rest.
Call Turn Shove with Top Pair Good Kicker? Quote
08-14-2019 , 08:31 AM
I think I hate every action in this hand, and I think AP turn is a fold. It might be marginally close if SB can have one pair+flush draw combos as well as JT/T9, but he's just going to have so many stronger hands than you here that you can't continue, even getting 2.75:1.

Raise preflop. As played, V1 and V2's PF ranges are irrelevant because they started with whatever two cards they were dealt. This means you have to consider all of the 2P combos. So I'd pretty seriously considering folding to the $15 into $8 on the flop. I'm certainly not raising.

This is where the expression "don't go broke in an unraised pot" comes from. You have one pair, and they can have literally anything, including either straight, any two pair, combo draw, whatever. You're almost certainly buried.

Even if you called and got lucky that SB spazzed with JT or T9 here, you still didn't have enough equity to call against his probable range.
Call Turn Shove with Top Pair Good Kicker? Quote
08-15-2019 , 08:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
Why the raise OTF?
I saw Villain 2 fold when he lead out on a turn (in another hand). In that hand he was on a flush draw and folded when he got raised, despite having right pot odds to draw.

Also he could have had a ten less than mine. A thought that was justified by the way he played the current hand (calling flop raise and then folding to turn action)... so I was raising for value, with also the small possibility of getting a hand like KT to fold.
Call Turn Shove with Top Pair Good Kicker? Quote
08-15-2019 , 08:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindingLaser
I think I hate every action in this hand.
It was certainly a mistake to not raise PF. My logic at the time was that I have the kind of hand that can flop well, and the guys behind me were all loose fish, especially the button, who had called a lot of my raises, and played sticky post-flop.

So limp to let in as many fish as possible, and avoid building a pot with a marginal hand. Then if I hit hard, will increase chances of getting a lot of action. Maybe this would have made more sense if it was folded to me on the button, or if there were multiple limpers in front of me, but I was in the hijack (not CO as posted) so raising was chance to buy pos.

AP I defend my flop raise as being the correct action. Had Villain 1 not got in the way, I would have likely won with a turn barrel against Villain 2 who ended up folding.

AP I called and Villain 1 showed down 76.
Call Turn Shove with Top Pair Good Kicker? Quote
08-15-2019 , 09:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aulm
It was certainly a mistake to not raise PF. My logic at the time was that I have the kind of hand that can flop well, and the guys behind me were all loose fish, especially the button, who had called a lot of my raises, and played sticky post-flop.

So limp to let in as many fish as possible, and avoid building a pot with a marginal hand. Then if I hit hard, will increase chances of getting a lot of action. Maybe this would have made more sense if it was folded to me on the button, or if there were multiple limpers in front of me, but I was in the hijack (not CO as posted) so raising was chance to buy pos.

AP I defend my flop raise as being the correct action. Had Villain 1 not got in the way, I would have likely won with a turn barrel against Villain 2 who ended up folding.

AP I called and Villain 1 showed down 76.
So regarding preflop: this hand is pretty mediocre. It sometimes makes top pair, but when it does, there's two or three overcards that can come and make you no longer have top pair, and your top pair is never TPTK, at best it's TP3K. If you have a visual read that nobody will raise you then okay, limp in, especially if as you say raising would just bloat the pot and they're all calling anyway. But I mean, in most rake structures, folding is fine too if a raise isn't going to accomplish what you want (either a heads up pot in position or stealing the blinds). It's suited, which is good, but again, you're unlikely to make the nut flush, so you're not really going to have a hand where you want to bomb money into an unraised pot postflop.

On the flop: This is why all of the above is true. Your V2 has now bet 2x the pot. While you have top pair, you have a serious RIO problem -- there's a lot of bad turn/river cards for you, you don't know which ones they are, and you don't even know that you're ahead right now. Your raise makes it so either V can shove as a 2/3s PSB. Do you really want to play for stacks with one mediocre pair? Because this is how you play for stacks with one mediocre pair.

On the turn: Look up "the baluga theorem" either via google or on this very forum. You've already told the story of your hand on the flop -- and this V1 still wants to ship it in. You're very infrequently going to be good, and even the few times you're good, you're actually only a small favorite against a hand like A8ss (they can catch a 9, spade, or ace to outdraw you).

Anyways preflop I can maybe see -- especially if you have a read due to hand movements or whatever that you're going to get one fold, one call, one complete, and one check. Postflop you just don't have enough hand. "Don't go broke in an unraised pot" is a piece of wisdom that goes all the way back to Doyle's Super System (or before). Your objective was to flop KJ9 and get them broke, not flop T76 and get broke yourself against 89. You did not hit this flop hard enough, so don't put all $130 in.

If you end up getting to play for about two small bets ($5 into $8, then $15 into $23 three ways), that would be roughly the right amount of money to play for postflop UI. When somebody else makes it $15 on the flop, that's the grand total I want to play for with this amount of hand. Calling is okay, I suppose, but you've got two streets left that you want to go check/check check/check and two hands yet to speak. Between all of that, I'd want to fold on this flop. Unless you tell me V2 is massively spewy (which is the opposite of your read, IMO), you can just find a better spot to win money.
Call Turn Shove with Top Pair Good Kicker? Quote
08-15-2019 , 03:45 PM
You know that phrase, "don't go broke in a limped pot without the nuts", "don't go broke with top pair weak kicker" is a wholly contained subset.

Hate the limp pre. This is an open raise. Also hate the flop raise. Call turn, because the money you lose will be a good lesson.
Call Turn Shove with Top Pair Good Kicker? Quote
08-15-2019 , 04:25 PM
If you're gonna limp this hand, you basically don't want to put a ton of money in post flop without flopping the world. The flop should be super straightforward as a call. I know it's top pair, but it's still just tens. As played, just fold.
Call Turn Shove with Top Pair Good Kicker? Quote
08-15-2019 , 04:28 PM
This hand is a tough one to read.

As others have stated, this is a very easy flat call otf. Turn is a snap fold.
Call Turn Shove with Top Pair Good Kicker? Quote
08-16-2019 , 07:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitchens97
Call turn, because the money you lose will be a good lesson.
Hahaha... funny because its true.
Call Turn Shove with Top Pair Good Kicker? Quote

      
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