Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Broadway no good on the flop? Broadway no good on the flop?

01-13-2011 , 10:51 AM
I haven't posted one of these in a while... just got back into playing cash games regularly after about 3-4 months of minimal activity.

Anyway, 1/3 NL game, it had just started about 20 minutes prior to this hand, so we are only about 10 hands into the game. Most everyone bought in for $300, and I had lost a couple early and am at around $275. I am in the big blind for this hand.

Hero: AK

Villain 1 is a somewhat LAGgy player but he's not a spewtard, so he's not the type to chase down draws with the wrong end or pay off with third pair. At least not when the big money gets in.

Villain 2 is my friend who I had just brought to the game for the first time. He is on my direct right.

action: UTG and UTG+1 fold, MP raises to $12 (standard). V1 calls, button folds and V2 calls from the small blind. I also call with AK because I do not want to bloat the pot this early out of position.

Pot = $48.

Flop:

Q J 10

Broadway! But, oh, no - diamonds! I have hearts! Still, I have a straight and I will play it for all that it is worth. At least that's my intention.

V2 leads out for $35. After some consideration, I just do not put him on a flush as he would try to be all sneaky and trap if he had a made flush (we've been playing together for years). Because of this I...

Hero min-raises to $70. This raise is mostly an announcement to my friend to get out of my pot but also small enough that I do not commit myself in case I do face immediate resistance. Meanwhile...

MP folds but V1 hesitates, cuts out his chips and flat calls the $70. There are now alarms going off in my head. Meanwhile, still...

V2 insta-shoves all in for about $300 total (has me covered).

It will now cost me the rest of my stack to continue, essentially $190 to win $448. My odds to call are not horrible, but I could easily be drawing dead as anyone with a flopped flush has me locked up with no outs. Plus V1 is still in the hand and I see no eagerness by him to fold, hmmmmm.

Thoughts?
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-13-2011 , 11:09 AM
There's too many combo draws on the board for me to fold getting that price. I imagine the naked ace or king of diamonds is stacking off on this flop. Not to mention sets/2 pair combos you are ahead of. I think you've got to stick it in here, but I never feel great about. I think there is a lot more combo draws in their ranges than made flushes.
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-13-2011 , 11:19 AM
I don't understand your thinking of not wanting to bloat the pot preflop but then min raising the flop. Also 3bet preflop (we have AKs and bloating the pot with a hand this strong isn't a bad thing) and don't min raise the flop.

V2 has a baby flush, fold.
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-13-2011 , 11:40 AM
I fold this all day.
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-13-2011 , 12:05 PM
V2 is ur friend right? Does he understand hand values? Would he shove TT here? A straight? AQ? This is what I'd be asking myself.

And dude you have a premium hand preflop. With an open and two calls in from of you I think the most +ev play there is to make a near pot-sized 3bet.

Last edited by SeeThomasHowl; 01-13-2011 at 12:21 PM.
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-13-2011 , 12:06 PM
I understand how it sucks to play OOP, but I think our hand is just too good to pass on a preflop 3bet, especially with all the dead money in the pot. I 3bet to $60 and play pretty straightforwardly after the flop if I get 2+ callers.

I think I just call the flop donk and re-evaluate. It lets a lotta people behind us put in money into a pot we're doing fairly good in, although flush draws are getting a good price.

As played I think I fold. We've indicated that we have a very solid hand and yet two people don't seem to care.
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-13-2011 , 12:08 PM
I am V2..I had AA with the Ad. I wish some one would have re-raised pre flop. I had the REAL premium hand. I shoved on the flop because I had out to the NUTS. Bad shove on my part?

Last edited by Fat Sack; 01-13-2011 at 12:19 PM.
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-13-2011 , 12:11 PM
No, but you need to 3-bet preflop.
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-13-2011 , 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Sack
I am V2..I had AA with the Ad. I wish some one would have re-raised pre flop. I had the REAL premium hand. I shoved on the flop because I had out to the NUTS. Bad shove on my part?
You guys are friends, one of you has AKs and the other has AA and neither of u 3bets the open raiser. You guys are trying to stack eachother huh.
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-13-2011 , 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeThomasHowl
You guys are friends, one of you has AKs and the other has AA and neither of u 3bets the open raiser. You guys are trying to stack eachother huh.
Funny how that works...

no friends at the poker table. Everyone trying to be sneaky.
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-13-2011 , 01:04 PM
Quote:
V1 is LAG.
V2 is my RL friend.
Flop: Q J 10
Pot = $48.

V2 leads out for $35.
- I know my friend slowplays flushes so I don't put him on that hand.

Hero min-raises to $70.
- This raise is mostly an announcement to my friend to get out of my pot.

V1 hesitates then flat calls $70.

V2 insta-shoves all in for about $300 total (has me covered).
At this point, I feel like you are in a bad spot because you are drawing dead to a flush which your friend could have (maybe he was betting as an announcement for you to get out of the pot) and the villain could also be slowplaying.

Not only that, now you have to put all your chips in when you are in a coinflip situation if either of your opponent has a diamond.

I'd fold and wait for a better spot.

P.S. I think if you flat call instead of min-raising in this spot you get to see the turn and if neither a diamond or paired board arrives by the turn, you can feel a bit more confident about your hand winning at showdown. A cheap showdown might be ideal in this situation.
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-13-2011 , 01:31 PM
My thoughts before your friend posted are that we are up against Adxx, and a low made flush. I'm out. Also, don't softplay your friends.

Friend, raise pre, good shove.
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-13-2011 , 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeorg
Also, don't softplay your friends.
How am I soft-playing my friend? I had no idea he tried to trap with AA. And he had to have no idea I had AK. It's not like we showed each other our cards, laughed and said "watch this!"

Similarly, I didn't want to race for stacks with AK OOP just 10 hands into what I hoped would be a lengthy session. After the flop - I did raise my friend's bet immediately and he re-raised me.

Other than maybe me folding to his post-flop 3-bet, I don't see where him being a friend factored into my decision-making overall.
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-13-2011 , 02:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grungedave
Similarly, I didn't want to race for stacks with AK OOP just 10 hands into what I hoped would be a lengthy session.
You're not sitting down at the table with a single BI, are you? This leads to poor decisions...
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-13-2011 , 02:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek
You're not sitting down at the table with a single BI, are you? This leads to poor decisions...
No, but in this particular instance, if I did have to re-buy, that would have been my last bullet... so it was a factor. Though not a dominating one because my decision was made because I just didn't see how I could be ahead of not just one but *two* people here.
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-13-2011 , 02:36 PM
Bring multiple BIs if you can. Half the time you'll be drawing dead here and the other half villain will have 9 outs twice. Fold is your best route.
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-13-2011 , 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grungedave
Though not a dominating one
Do you think it affected your preflop decision?
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-13-2011 , 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grungedave
How am I soft-playing my friend?
Quote:
Originally Posted by grungedave
Hero min-raises to $70. This raise is mostly an announcement to my friend to get out of my pot...
It sounds like the fact that your friend was in the hand affected your play.
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-13-2011 , 04:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeorg
It sounds like the fact that your friend was in the hand affected your play.
If the fact that I am quite familiar with how one person in the hand tends to play does NOT affect my decision, then I am doing something wrong.
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-13-2011 , 10:19 PM
You specifically stated that you minraised to tell your friend to get out of the pot. I am guessing that this is because you have flopped a huge hand. You are trying to help him play perfectly against you. That is softplay in my book.
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-14-2011 , 06:40 AM
OMFG Collusion!!!! Perm ban.
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-14-2011 , 10:16 AM
I'm not going to pretend it never happens, it bugs me that the guy's denying it. Hell a couple sessions ago I struck up conversation with the guy to my right, and between his betting and a wink here and there he basically told me his hand a few times during the night (although in those spots, it didn't affect my decision). But I'm not going to pretend it didn't happen.
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-14-2011 , 10:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koss
There's too many combo draws on the board for me to fold getting that price. I imagine the naked ace or king of diamonds is stacking off on this flop. Not to mention sets/2 pair combos you are ahead of. I think you've got to stick it in here, but I never feel great about. I think there is a lot more combo draws in their ranges than made flushes.
I agree with this 100%. If you were really deep or playing anything but live $1/2, you could have a discussion about folding.
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-14-2011 , 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeorg
You specifically stated that you minraised to tell your friend to get out of the pot. I am guessing that this is because you have flopped a huge hand. You are trying to help him play perfectly against you. That is softplay in my book.
All the facts indicate otherwise, however. If my friend and I truly had a 'code' of when to raise/fold/call - quite obviously it didn't work out since he insta-re-raised me. By saying that "I min-raised to tell my friend to get out of my pot" - that's more sarcasm than anything. Maybe I should have italicized "get out of my pot!" to emphasize the joke next time?

I would have min-raised nearly anyone there. Friend or foe.
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote
01-14-2011 , 04:16 PM
Don't defend against your collusion - no one really cares, ppl just want to complain. Gives you no edge the way you're doing it anyways.

I don't think villain would spazzed with many hands aside from AdAx because AA is the nuts on any board, and we can't put him on AA after he flatted the PFR in the SB.
Broadway no good on the flop? Quote

      
m