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Bone-dry board on river with busted draw: good time to bluff? Bone-dry board on river with busted draw: good time to bluff?

10-10-2013 , 03:36 PM
Preflop descriptions:

Hero: Tight-aggressive player. Been at table for about 45 minutes. Has been playing straightforward, raised a few pots, then wiffed flop and given up etc. Did play one hand against Villain 1 about 2 orbits ago where Hero raised preflop, flop checked around, hero checkraised turn as bluff, and hero open jams river with air. Pot ended up being around 800. Villain had bottom pair on flop and runner-runnered a flush. Hero did not show, but much of table thought hero had top set.

Villain 1: Loose but seemingly good player. Sees a flop maybe with 1/3 of his hands, but knows how to bet for thin value, and seems comfortable playing big pots with moderate hands relying purely on his reads. Called preflop raise and 3 streets of betting on 35Q9Q board with 45 and took down the pot on one hand. Also capable of folding decent hands when beat. Thinks out loud, talks a lot about odds and physical tells, etc.

Villain 2: Same description as villain 1 but talks much less. Also seems to be very good, solid player.

$1/3 NL home game

SB Villain 1 ($900)
BB
UTG
UTG 1
MP Villain 2 ($1100)
MP 2
LP 1
LP 2
Button Hero ($500)

Hero is dealt 98

3 players, including Villain 2 limp to hero, button Hero makes it $15. SB Villain 1 calls, UTG 1 calls, Villain 2 calls.

Flop ($60): T74

Checks around.

Turn ($160): 2

Villain 1 bets $40, UTG 1 folds, Villain 2 calls, Hero calls.

River ($180): 4

Both villains check to Hero. Should Hero bluff here? If so, how much?
Bone-dry board on river with busted draw: good time to bluff? Quote
10-10-2013 , 03:39 PM
check river. you rep nothing
Bone-dry board on river with busted draw: good time to bluff? Quote
10-10-2013 , 03:40 PM
also bet the flop! raise pre with sc's and get a very favorable board and you check in position????
Bone-dry board on river with busted draw: good time to bluff? Quote
10-10-2013 , 03:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamicheats
also bet the flop! raise pre with sc's and get a very favorable board and you check in position????
+1.

After reading OP, I puked in my mouth a little.
Bone-dry board on river with busted draw: good time to bluff? Quote
10-10-2013 , 03:56 PM
Check back. You just said Villain 1 seems like a good player who can read hands, and Villain 2 is similar. They could be, or they just could be calling stations. Hard to tell, but either way as played you rep nothing and should get looked up light. You fold out nothing other than other busted draws, some of which you beat/tie.

In the future, this board is perfect for a cbet from the button, and possibly a decent spot for a 2nd barrel if you size flop correctly.
Bone-dry board on river with busted draw: good time to bluff? Quote
10-10-2013 , 03:56 PM
If raising pre has a real chance of isoing one of them that might fold to a flop c-bet then go for it, but if all you're doing is bloating the pot (and lowering the SPR, which is bad for your hand) then it's better to limp along. I think in most LLSNL games, the latter will be more applicable in this particular spot. But cheats is right that once you raise pre, you gotta bet this flop. As played, against some non-thinking villains I wouldn't mind raising turn and/or betting river, but you won't get credit from regs on this runout after your flop check, because nothing feasible got there (22?).
Bone-dry board on river with busted draw: good time to bluff? Quote
10-10-2013 , 03:58 PM
Why in the world are you raising pre if you are checking this flop?
Bone-dry board on river with busted draw: good time to bluff? Quote
10-10-2013 , 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zxing
Preflop descriptions:

3 players, including Villain 2 limp to hero, button Hero makes it $15. SB Villain 1 calls, UTG 1 calls, Villain 2 calls.

Flop ($60): T74

Checks around.

Turn $160
What happened here?
Bone-dry board on river with busted draw: good time to bluff? Quote
10-10-2013 , 04:25 PM
Sorry, the $160 on the turn was a typo. I meant $60. No money went in on the flop.
Bone-dry board on river with busted draw: good time to bluff? Quote
10-10-2013 , 04:33 PM
Fire out $40 on the Flop instead of check/calling $40 on the Turn.

On the River your hand looks a lot like nothing to a thinking Villain.
Bone-dry board on river with busted draw: good time to bluff? Quote
10-10-2013 , 05:01 PM
You don't have to raise just b/c you are on the button. If you are going to play flop or fold just limp with everyone playing that way. Otherwise you have to bet the flop.

On the river....well you can't decide after all the action is done whether or not you now want to bluff. Not really as good strategy. What about your hand screams if I bet now they will believe me?
Bone-dry board on river with busted draw: good time to bluff? Quote
10-10-2013 , 06:25 PM
I applaud you for considering a way to win this pot. This is after all a good sized pot. So on the river you should range villains and decide how to fold out their most likely hands. You of course need to represent a hand that beats them. Here is the problem...

Let's say SB has JTs. How are you going to rep a hand that beats him now? If you tell me he is a weak player that is reluctant to call big bets unless he holds a big hand that is one thing, but that is not how you describe him.

So if you get through the SB to the limper who called the raise... if he is a good, solid player then his call on the turn is strong.

Which brings us to the advice itt. Why raise the button to $15 vs. loose/solid player types? Given stack sizes you could raise less? Or just limp along?
Bone-dry board on river with busted draw: good time to bluff? Quote
10-10-2013 , 07:40 PM
Don't raise hands like these preflop if you're going to shut down on great flops.
Bone-dry board on river with busted draw: good time to bluff? Quote
10-11-2013 , 03:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zxing

Villain 1: Loose but seemingly good player. Sees a flop maybe with 1/3 of his hands, but knows how to bet for thin value, and seems comfortable playing big pots with moderate hands relying purely on his reads. Called preflop raise and 3 streets of betting on 35Q9Q board with 45 and took down the pot on one hand. Also capable of folding decent hands when beat. Thinks out loud, talks a lot about odds and physical tells, etc.

Villain 2: Same description as villain 1 but talks much less. Also seems to be very good, solid player.
See bold sections above. These are not the type of players to bluff. So which one c/r'd you?

Flat pre, you already have a multi-way pot and position - perfect for the hand you have. Invite the blinds to come along so you have more players to pay you off when you smash the flop. When you flop a solid draw c/c or c/f based on pot and implied odds. As played c-bet the flop.
Bone-dry board on river with busted draw: good time to bluff? Quote
10-11-2013 , 04:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamicheats
check river. you rep nothing
x2

Bet $50 on the flop FFS. You have the best hand in poker and flopped the joint, put some chips in! You think V's are continuing with anything worse than AT here? Probably not, plus you have the nut draw if they do call and the pot will be built to get stacks in when you hit.
Bone-dry board on river with busted draw: good time to bluff? Quote
10-11-2013 , 09:55 AM
No bluff. Check fold.
Bone-dry board on river with busted draw: good time to bluff? Quote
10-11-2013 , 10:30 AM
Yep, I can't think of a single hand you could be repping, so check/fold.

I would probably just limp PF. If you bet pre-flop with SC's (even on button), it's basically somewhat of a bluff. So bet more to narrow the hand to heads up or 3-way and then c-bet the flop (especially if it's a dry flop and you get an open-ended straight draw).

With your preflop bet, I would c-bet. Even 4-way, it's a dry board and you have an open-ended straight draw.

With no c-bet, I would check/fold turn and check/fold river.
Bone-dry board on river with busted draw: good time to bluff? Quote
10-11-2013 , 10:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwslim69
Why in the world are you raising pre if you are checking this flop?
Especially a board like that. Even if you get called on flop, it would thin the players out and make it possibly easier to take it down on later streets, if not right there on the flop.
Next, why are you calling turn bet with an ISD? I'm not one for floating with stuff like that against said villains.
You're representing garbage (which you have) you're not pushing ANYTHING out. Even a small PP against the V's you described
Bone-dry board on river with busted draw: good time to bluff? Quote

      
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