What role do you feel bluffing plays in your game? I bluff sometimes but probably not at the best times or in the best spots. Sometimes it is just pure desperation. I know I love opponents who never bluff, or opponents who bluff constantly.

If you believe players never bluff and they don't show you their cards, how do you know they never bluff if the hand doesn't go to showdown?

Bluffing too much is a common mistake, people get attached to the pot and as you say, bluff out of desperation. Sometimes there's (ill-found) logic such as 'I played it like a set' and opponent calls with TPWK, because they don't understand their opponents tendencies.

The fact that you've realised that your bluffing spots are a leak is a good thing. Now you can plug the leaks, think more about your line in the hand, not what you see, but what you think your opponent sees.

Personally, I like to quadruple merge my range.

You need to think of bluffs as story telling. For them to work, the story has to be believable and the opponent has to be listening.

You can't bluff level 1 thinkers. They are playing via their own absolute hand strength. At LLSNL, TP is a winner often enough that they consider it good enough to keep playing no matter what they are seeing outside.

Now assume you're up against a perceptive, but relatively straight forward level 2 thinker. He raises in EP and you call with SC. The flop is two tone and you pick up a straight draw (you have the wrong suit). He makes a near PSB. You know you aren't getting odds to call with your SD. However, you can call because you picked up 7 additional phantom outs. If the third suited card comes out, you can represent you hit your hand and because he doesn't want to be a POW, he'll fold to a bet. Therefore, you can call the flop bet and bluff the turn when it hits. The story makes senses to him. You called pf, so you didn't have a big pair. You called not getting pot odds, but assumed you could get IO. He thinks, "HaHa, I win because I'm not paying you off."

I should note you have the added bonus beyond that you won the pot in that he thinks you chase stupidly, therefore are still a bad player.

Most LLSNL players fail because they don't realize their story makes no sense or nobody is listening. If you are the PF raiser, bet the flop and turn and a potential FD hits on the river, nobody believes you have the FD on the river.

venice just laid out my favorite bluff. Just don't do it the other way and bluff representing the made straight.

Another one I like to do is on paired flops. There is always that one guy who likes to bet at every one of them (a pretty transparent bluff). If I'm in position on him and he bets a paired flop I simply call behind him. Most people with 2-pair hands at this point run away figuring one of you have the trips and want to get another bet out of him. If it's heads-up going to the turn, most of the times he will check and you can bet and win. Sometimes he bets again. Some guys will keep betting until you show strength. If villain is aggro like this, go ahead and put in a raise. He most likely folds. If a second bet from this villain is likely to mean something, just abandon the bluff and try again some other time.

If you want a good book on the subject, I'm a fan of "The Book of Bluffs" by Matt Lessinger.

Bluffing is part of my game. But its not the bluffs on TV. It more like cbet air, cbet turn air. Then rep something on the river with evaluation of board texture of course. River play is by far the worst attribute of LLSNL.

Your story has to make since. The fish have to be scared of your image. Or the board is so scary even a fish can see it.

Your hand reading skills have to be up to par. To even think about bluffing. If not hold off on bluffing sorry players. In the end when they look you up it will just be spew.

One of my favorite "bluffs" is calling a preflop raised IP. And with the right flop and the right villian...I can call both flop turn bets...(floating) with the intent of shoving the river after his 3 barrel. Given circumstances have to be right ie villian board texture image etc.

I can.say I have a very high success rate with this line. *warning I don't advise this play do at your own peril* I took some fails.

Using hand ranges board textures and image are all ingredients for pushing people off hands.

snap folding 2 pair when you get check raised by a nit accomplishes the same thing as bluffing, and is WAY cheaper.

it looks like you were bluffing, like you had nothing.
so, now you don't need to bluff.
even unobservant fish will notice this; they tank fold friggin Q hi!

bluffing (doing more than taking a stab), is LOLbad at lo stakes.

it's a rare opponent at this lvl, that you can mutli barrel into, and not be flushing your stack, in my experience.
once they've shown interest in the pot, you need a crowbar to get them out, not a bluff!


or... i really suck at bluffing, i feel good about 2 out of my last 100 attempts at LLS.

Wow that is a horrible bluff rate. At least at 2/5 I see scared money. I bluff almost everytime I cbet. They fold easily. I thought bluffing was a part of the game. If your not bluffing. Then your playing bingo.

Idk about you but I can't connect with the board everytime.

Just my thoughts

I basically never 3-bet preflop light. I'll 3-bet w/ like 88 OTB against a Co raise, but I don't think of that as a bluff. Postflop, I do the standard c-bet in heads up pots on the flop, which is definetly a bluff. I do it most of the time when I miss a flop, but not all the time.

As far as bluffs beyond that, ocassionally, maybe once every 8 hours of playing, I'll make a smallish bluff if I find a good situation for it, but rarely do I bluff for more than like $30 in a 1/2 game.

Am I not bluffing often enough?

In the long run, I can't see how that is possibly a smart move. In order to profitably float a flop bet, then bet turn w/ air after villain checks, you need a very good and unusual situation (super aggro villain, heads up IP on flop, good flop, no hand no draw), and even in this situation, you are risking so much to win little, so you need to win 50% of the time or more.

W/ your line of floating TWICE, then bluffing river, I'd imagine you'd need to win a ridiculously large % of the time, which would be impossible in the long run.

Don't worry Yoda I'm.not advising it...but used right properly I've great success with it.

This line was first presented to me by slowhabit in his workbook.

Obviously don't do this in live 1/2 and rarely in 2/5 but in 5/10 live and online 1/2+ Its applicable.

Also side note I never said I use any line the way you presented it by floating flop betting turn....reread ...its a line I rarely take with floating flop and turn...

Also your logic for not wanting to do it is really flawed....which leaded me to believe you did not actually thinking about it...

If you consider stacks...obviously the pot has to optimal for us to do so along with many other factors such as image hand ranges you apply and more importantly board texture....which IMO alot of people don't understanding and don't utilize. Board texture is extremely important with any certain line you take.


For instance the thread you started saying we can get value by checking the river with q high...

I do not ask you to understand because obviously somethings about this game not everyone's will understanding....

And I am not advising this line for you...its an example of how to utilize certain situations and be a thinking player...not a robot.

Your playing 1/2 no need to bluff. They aren't thinking players...

This suggests you go into a hand planning to bluff. A good bluff is taking advantage of the opportunity to steal a pot based on situation, read, opponent and proper table image. Mindlessly firing barrels at the nuts is not what it's about.

I go into a hand thinking about FE. Poker is never mindless, its a reason why players fear me at the table. I make sure I take my time on each street. So in they're mind. They like wtf is he thinking. Why is he taking so long. Maybe because I make sure they know I'm a thinking player. Not just wildly throwing chips in the middle.

c-betting is not bluffing.

raising w/ Q2, and firing 3 barrels w/ air is bluffing.

I did that recently, and dude called me down w/ 6 hi (OESD), and binked a 6 OTR.

they don't fold=winning w/out a showdown is not a reality.

also, just cuz i don't feel good about a bluff, doesnt mean they didnt fold that time.
I still departed from my game plan at LLS.

if you're playing LLS, have a nice trip to bustoville!

Do you even play 2/5? Idk about 1/2 but in 2/5. Most people are nits, they play fit/fold.

These are my conclusions from the $3/5 game HU or 3 way OTF:

I have noticed that when I do flop or turn a big hand, the hand usually does not go to showdown anyway (and when it does I am often coolered). So, obviously, I do not need a hand to win those.

I don't c-bet a ton, but when I do, I bet it like I mean it, that means 2 barrels.

It is important to barrel with some equity: a gutshot, two overs, bottom or middle pair, etc. Ie. when I have T8s on a J82 board, I usually will 2 barrel, not just for value or protection, but as a semi-bluff.

Board texture is more important OTT than OTF. It often nearly impossible to know if a flop hit my opponent, it's just so hard to put them on a range PF. Often, they like to draw to two pair or trips OTF and give up OTT.

God, i really do hate your guts.

Bluffing is good, but over-rated in LLSNL, as stampler aforementioned, they dont fold, why are you trying to make them fold? Just value bet them harder.

C-betting etc. doesnt count as bluffing, floating 3 streets to shove on them... THAT is bluffing(and spewy so often), and so i would only do it if i had a soul read.

ya, this [whoop] insert John Madden voice [whoop]

when someone folds bottom set, now you bluffed them.
let me know when that happens in LLS.
i posted a hand where i bluffed a nit off of a set of deuces w/ AKhi in a @500+bb pot. it was a long time ago, and i was much more reckless, and i thought i was a genius at the time,cuz i won the pot, and achieved psychological acendancy over the V for life. ( he still talks about it every time i run into him). but in retrospect, it was perty damn stupid.

a lot of fools think "i bluffed that donk, tee, hee!"
but they were bluffing w/ the best hand (c-betting?), and your nothing was a monster compared to his/her nothing.
well, I hope you impressed yourself with THAT bluff.

it's a simple fact that you win hands at LLS the vast majority of the time at showdown, in general. sure, every game is different.

go ahead and try to prove me wrong, but i think you'll be trying to prove it in bustoville, thats all.

going into a random LLS game thinking you are going to turn a profit in todays poker climate by not seeing showdowns is just delusional, to put it mildly.

ILCD, maybe this is one of your leaks??
you are over thinking things?
maybe poker IS mindless, when played optimally.
it's certainly boring.
all your posts area about "me, me, me", so maybe your game is like that, too?
take yourself, and your mind out of it.
get a lobotomy if you have to.
sometimes, when you over-think things, and get too self-absorbed (admittedly poker plyrs tend to be this way), it's not your opponenets who are confused by your play, but your wallet.
(where did all those benjamins go?)

donks don't care how fancy your play was, and they could care less about being impressed by your mad skillz, when they go 'snap'.

Cbetting flop and turn with air is not bluffing? I know we play two different games.

You must be a 1/2 player. Heard they have a lot of crazy players at those tables. Playing that rake 100BB is suicide on your brain. Guess you had a tough time at the tables last night.

A champion critiques his game more then anyone. I always think outside the box. I guess you don't see that from my post. Maybe because you don't read my post clearly. I think on a high level. So sorry for all the misunderstandings.

ILCD, I can vouch that Stampler knows what he is talking about and crushes the LLSNL game. He demonstrates a very sound understanding of the game that I think you lack.

Your posts are always "I'm so awesome I can do 'this' and win. To bad you guys can't do 'this' or else you'd be as awesome as I am".

There is a VERY VERY simple logical principle involved in LLSNL and that is that a large percentage of your villains have an inferior understanding of the game. They are going to be Level I thinkers. They will only be looking at their hand and the board and they just flat out don't care what you have.

So, trying to 'rep' vs them with all your mad poker skillz is just spew.

now are there some LLSNL villains you can exploit with advanced moves and what not? Sure. But they represent the minority of players.

I will say that bluffing is overrated at LLSNL. It just is. Not to say it isn't useful, but it is not going to be where you make the majority of your money.

Also, majority of LLSNL players don't bluff correctly. The biggest mistake by far is betting too little. They bet 1/4 pot on the river because "I want him to think that its a value bet, and if it is a value bet then he's got to think that he's beat and then he will fold"

yeah, good luck with that. You give villain 5 to 1 odds and expect him to fold any hand with showdown value.

If you are going to bluff, not only do you have to have a believable line like Venice has comment on, but your bluff also has to have some teeth!!!

and that is probably the biggest leak at LLSNL, when players do bluff, they experience some major shrinkage between their legs and bet like little girls.

I say this with all sincerity ILCD.

For the sake of argument, lets assume you are a good winning player.

Your ego is going to get you killed by blinding you from a few obvious truths.

Ego blinds people in all aspects of life, business, relationships, work, and in your case, Poker.

I don't mean to sound condescending but you remind me of a 22yr old fresh out of college. Not only does he know everything, he is incapable of listening, truly 'hearing' the advice of the people who have been down the same road he is currently traveling on.

If you don't get a handle on your ego, its going to sink you. And i'm talking like a Titanic sized sinking.

And this relates to the thread at hand (so don't delete Venice)

the biggest problem with bluffing at LLSNL is ego.

You have no idea how much money is burnt up at LLSNL because of ego.

Yes, confidence is good, but overconfidence is flat out deadly.