Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Bluff line check w/ 33, too optimistic? Bluff line check w/ 33, too optimistic?

12-11-2013 , 07:46 PM
$1/$3 home game. Two full tables running, my table is by far the bigger table with the stacks ranging from $500-$2000. The table play is somewhat loose and every hand has a few hundred in the middle.

Villain: 40's guy. Deals another local game. Known for playing solid. I've only played with him one other time but I can tell from speaking with him and watching how he plays that he is a thinking player, can question himself ' what can I beat?' Etc. has $700 almost exactly behind.

Hero: 25 years old. A regular in the game. has been playing aggressive, betting at uncontested pots, not showing many hands, but is overall looked at as someone who 'has it' more often than not. Within a previous orbit got a full double from a guy who flopped top 2 on AKQ board while hero valued JT into a river shove that got called. Villain saw this. Hero has $1200 or so.

Other 2 irrelevant villains have over $1k a piece also.

9 handed, folds to irrelevant villain in cutoff who makes it $10
Hero calls $10 on button w/ 33.
Villain makes it $50 on sb.
Bb is irrelevant, calls $50.
Original raiser calls $50.
Hero calls $50. (is this a fold? With stacks so deep I didn't think it was)

Flop ($200): 774
Everyone, including hero checks.

Turn ($200): 4
Checks to hero.
Hero bets $150.
Villain in sb calls.
All others fold.

River ($500): Q
Villain checks.
Hero shoves for the remaining stack of villain, approx $500.

I felt like with my image and his ability to figure out hands, he could find a fold here with all A high hands at minimum. I felt any big pair would bet/shut down to a call on this flop, or at least bet turn.

Was this just a complete spew play? Or does this line look believable to a thinking player who has just seen me show the nuts and has a perception that I usually have it when I'm firing barrels into a pot?

Thanks in advance.
Bluff line check w/ 33, too optimistic? Quote
12-11-2013 , 07:54 PM
it's pretty rare that you'll overcall with a 7 or a 4. It'd be hard for him to level himself into a fold thinking you have a flush.

He is thinking so blind aggression = spew in his eyes and he'd be right.

V will turn up with big PP's here often. He decides not to c-bet this dry paired board as he feels he's WA/WB and would like for people to catchup somewhat in this bloated pot.
Bluff line check w/ 33, too optimistic? Quote
12-11-2013 , 08:05 PM
Obviously, from the time we planned to bluff the turn to bombing the river, he's got to fold frequently. The problem here is his stack. After calling your turn bet, he's put close to 30% of his stack in, therefore decreasing your fold equity substantially. Any thinking player would know that he generally can't fold after committing that much money to the pot.
Bluff line check w/ 33, too optimistic? Quote
12-11-2013 , 08:18 PM
This looks pretty spewy to me, double paired boards always look like a decent spot for a bluff...but its so easy for a villan to level himself into a call....precisly because it does look like a good bluffing spot.....its easy for us to think along the lines of...'he can't have any 7s or 4s in a 3bet pot so I should be able to move him off anything that isn't a boat' but we have to remember that any thinking villan will look at this like 'he can't have a 7 or 4 in a 3 bet pot, he didn't raise pre so it won't be qq+.....'
For me a massive mistake people make is bluffing when they have a non-nutted range.....good bluffs represent a strong range of hands, the wider the better....if your thinking for a bluff is....im going to rep exactly xx....its not going to work....you should try to represent a range of strong holdings....
In this example you are repping way to narrow to expect a fold.
Bluff line check w/ 33, too optimistic? Quote
12-11-2013 , 09:02 PM
Spewy.

You're probably getting an A high to fold, but that's it. He's snapping you off with a 7, 4, (which he doesn't have), a Q, or any PP. And I think he's got a good number of PP's in his range with his line.
Bluff line check w/ 33, too optimistic? Quote
12-12-2013 , 12:44 AM
I think when you are checked to on the flop, you should have bet IP.
Your river bet is too big and looks bluffy, you wouldn't play it that way if you actually had a full house or flush there, although I doubt he can find a call if he just had ace high.
Bluff line check w/ 33, too optimistic? Quote
12-12-2013 , 02:23 AM
Very interesting hand.

Very nice value shove on the river.

I like the creativity of merging / depolarizing your range via a very large river value bet with 33 because villain's range is just so so so weighted to Ax given pre-flop and post-flop action, etc. He almost never has a better hand - what's he 3-betting with pre that would call your turn bet but not want to fire the flop? Yes, exactly, pretty much only Ax, Ax and Ax. I doubt he's ever 3-betting 55 pre-flop; and I doubt he's ever 3-betting JJ pre-flop and then taking a line of check flop, call turn.

He can certainly snap you off very light on this double paired board because it's almost impossible for you to have a 7 or a 4, you can't have quads because no one ever has quads, and your bet seems so incredibly polarized given action and size that even a flush seems somewhat unlikely.

Very creative, very nice value bet. I think he calls with enough worse and that it's definitely think it's +EV. If he backdoored a flush and calls, well that's just bad luck.

Wait... you said you're bluffing? What the ****.

Edit: Damn, wish you had 55. Obviously I now realize you're counterfeited.

Yes, bad bluff with 33, but good value bet with 55.

Last edited by Willyoman; 12-12-2013 at 02:28 AM.
Bluff line check w/ 33, too optimistic? Quote
12-12-2013 , 02:44 AM
If villain is a thinking player and understand that all pairs and flushes are the same strength as A-high on this board, he can find a fold. However, depending on your history with v maybe v can level into a call, your line is really strong -check flop when flopped trip 7s, surely hero has some suited connect in his range-, then bet turn shove river for value.
Bluff line check w/ 33, too optimistic? Quote
12-12-2013 , 01:03 PM
I think I'm cool with the original flat, although I guess there is an argument for 3betting a LP small open. But I'm cool with playing a small pot in position where I'm not necessarily setmining. I think I'm also cool with calling the flop 3bet; stacks are big, we'll be going 4way to the flop (already decent immediate odds and we have 3 possible opponents we are setmining against), so pretty easy setmining spot.

Once it's checked to me, I'd bet the flop. The original 3better has checked, so you'd think we'd have heard from other pairs by now. Lotta money in the pot, our hand could easily be good, I think I make a smallish bet at it and see if it takes it down.

As played, I'd actually give up on the turn as our hand is now useless plus our turn bet tells no believable story. Methinks we get looked up by the river with A high (and obviously better), like, always. I guess we did end up applying maximum pressure with the river shove, but I still think we get too many tank calls for this to be profitable since we're repping nothing other than perhaps the flush.

GcluelessNLnoobG
Bluff line check w/ 33, too optimistic? Quote
12-12-2013 , 01:35 PM
Really don't like checking flop and then betting turn versus just betting flop.

I think c/f may be the best option, though, on both streets.
Bluff line check w/ 33, too optimistic? Quote
12-12-2013 , 02:06 PM
What would you do with 88 here?
Likely take the same line.

Would you expect him to call with A high here vs 88?
What if you had 55?

I think we would value bet the same was expecting V to make some bad hero calls here some of the time. Because of that I think this is a bad spot to bluff.

Don't bluff in spots, taking the same line you would with a value hand, when you would expect to get value.

Spoiler:
But I suck a the pokerz, so I dunno.
Bluff line check w/ 33, too optimistic? Quote

      
m