1/2

Most of the table very passive, early afternoon weekday casino crowd- a lot of limping, except from V.

~ $250 - Hero, has been card dead, haven't played any hands against V since he sat down and few against anyone else. Likely perceived as tight and maybe even a nit.

~ $600 - Reggy Villain, Has been raising frequently into limped pots, knows all the dealers, appears to be playing approximately 30% of hands pre, and winning a lot of small pots postflop, haven't seen a lot of showdowns or big pots.



Hero(CO) JcJs, opens to $15, BU calls, BB calls

Flop($40) 8d4c3h

BB checks, Hero bets $20, BU calls, BB folds

Turn($80) 10d

Hero bets $40, BU calls

River($160) Qd

Hero checks?!, BU reaches for chips, asks to see my stack and seeing my $175ish, says all-in. Hero - ?

Do I pay off the BDFDs or should I get away?

What backdoor draws call a flop? Its limited combos of A3/A4/A2/A5/56. If he's playing 30% not sure he's flatting this raise oop with 56. I think most v's will c/r turn with a made hand at that point (T8/flopped sets).

I think if we had KK we can call here more often but the added combos of somehow spiking a Q make this a fold.

I think you need to either go bigger on turn or b/f river something like $70.

Size up on turn

Bet 60 on the turn to charge the draw. Easy fold on the river. V has A2-5dd, 88, 33, 44, sometimes QX.

Interesting, I was actually the villain in this scenario, had 5c6c. I found the call on the flop very easy since the hero appeared tight, this was the first raise he made after limp folding a few times. I figured he was most likely on 10+ or broadway, if I hit I could play stacks and he might give up the turn with many broadways.

On the turn, it was the wrong backdoor, but his bet seemed weak. I decided to call with the plan of bluffing most diamonds, and some straight completing cards.

When he checked the river, I was confident he didn't have AA,KK,QQ - which made up most of his range I thought might call me. I also thought most KQ, QJ would bet as well. So greenlight on the bluff. I thought I could get AK, AJ, A10, KJ, 10J, 77-99 etc. to fold.

He gave me a nice "ugh", tanked a bit and made a reluctant call. I thought it was a good bluff, and I believe that he would have folded most hands here but JJ was just borderline enough.

I'm surprised how much credit I get for Q here. I think I don't have many queens at all. AQ/KQ maybe floats but folds the turn or bluffs. QJ could be in play, but hero blocks those. So realistically I have Q10, maybe Q9 suited. But I'm probably raising turn with Q10. I wouldn't play Q2-Q8. So as played, the only Qs I have are QJ/Q9. With JJ hero blocks a chunk of that.

My perception is I was representing the BDFD coming in as I have all Ax and Kx diamonds (ex AK), most calling flop most of the time. I also have suited 45-67, 9-10, J9-10, 57-79 etc. That's a lot of combos that could float the flop with BDFD and BDSD, then continue the turn.

I think hero clearly should have bet bigger on the turn, that probably would have dissuaded the weaker flush draws and certainly my bluff. As it is, he doubled through me and didn't play another hand. Half an hour later my chips were headed to the cage in enemy hands. Fortunately, I was later paid off on an all-in shove with a flush by another player, perhaps because of showing this hand.

Reverse HH, no bueno.

I think you can credibly rep the flush, problem is your read, frustrated tight player likely pays you off here if you really had it.

Hey OP, people don’t want to give you feedback if you post reverse hands.

Your line as V doesn't make a lot of sense. You're basically repping 6d5d, or maybe Jd9d / 9d7d. But why would those hands want to over-bet jam, when opponent checks?

I get "polarized", but not when you've tsken such a passive line up to the river, and you're only repping a couple of combos for thick value, none of which are the pure nuts. Low stakes players who slow down and check river are usually checking to call, not fold.

Noted, but I don't really understand why. Understanding from the opposition's POV seems essential to being even a halfway decent poker player. I'm always trying to understand what my opponent is thinking, and that involves looking at the hand as the opponent. Reading through the forums here, a lot of people seem to assume the opposition is bad because they are playing a certain stake or they look a certain way, or they played a certain hand a certain way. What does that say about you who is playing the same stakes, likely look a certain way, and have certainly played some hands very poorly.


If I want to know if my bluff is good from a theoretical perspective, I can plug it into a solver. It wasn't at this stack depth, it was theoretically sound if we had $50 less but that involves capping the computer with what was clearly an underbet on the turn, but I don't know if Hero bets 1/2 pot with everything. Maybe he has 2 sizes here. Given choices, the computer never bets 1/2 pot. So with me having to force the choice, (and therefore lock in all other hands to the same choice) I'm not confident in the end result - garbage in, garbage out.

If I want to know if my bluff is good from an exploitive perspective, I have to understand what's going on in my opponent's head and I'm not so arrogant to assume that everyone else at the table is vastly inferior, stupid, or fits into easy characterizations. Never seen this guy, but it's a casino in flyover country, he could have been in town on business or visiting family and just wanted to play some cards, for all I know, he goes home and sits in a $100/$200/$400 game and plays for houses. So if I want to know if my bluff is good or not, looking at it from my perspective is useless. I have to be in my opponent's shoes. If I were in his shoes, is it an easy call? A difficult call? A sometimes fold? What is my opponent thinking and feeling?

If I'm studying chess, I'm always turning around the board and looking at it from the other side. My old coach used to force me to do that routinely. I don't know why people here seem offended by it. I thought we were here to learn (at least that's why I'm here), and whether I was on the left or right side of the scenario is irrelevant to what can be learned from the position. It's a scenario at a poker table, and we should be free to discuss it from both sides to fully understand it.

It wasn't a snap call from him. He thought about it, so that tells me that folding was at least considered. The small sample size here suggests that maybe the bluff is better than I thought as many would have folded JJ in the same position and nobody said it was an easy call. So maybe the line is ok, and it was just wrong opponent, wrong hand, wrong time - I think he folds almost all his range except JJ here. JJ seems to be the best possible hand he could have as played. Did I make a mistake? Did he make a mistake? Did we both make mistakes? That's what I came on here to explore.

I was reaching for less, my inclination was to go with $100. Which if he had $300+ back, I would have done in a heartbeat. But when I looked at his stack, it was a bit of a mess and I misjudged it to be around $140, and if I were value betting, I'm not putting a player 70% all in, I'm going for it all under the assumption that if they are calling 70% of their stack, they are probably willing to put it all in. Whereas sizing at something like $75 seemed to be inviting a hero call from something like AK. So it was a bit of an uncomfortable SPR combined with a misread on my part. Maybe I should have just aborted last minute. I'm pretty good at assessing stack sizes when I'm taking on the aggressor role on the turn, but it is a bit of a leak in my game that faced with turn bets I sometimes call too quickly without fully thinking about what the opposition has behind. If I had been the bettor on the turn, I would have been betting $60 and that would have set up a river with $200 in the pot and $155 behind, a more straightforward shoving option. But I let him dictate the flop and turn size.

Maybe a min-raise on the turn would have been a better sizing? Then I can proceed forward with a shove on the river with a slightly more than half-pot effective. That may increase the incentive to call if I choose to bluff the river, but it also gives me a lot more two-pair/sets in addition to the BDFD to my story. So a tougher fold size-wise but maybe that is outweighed by me having a lot more hands that beat JJ. And if he ships the turn, I get away easily only losing $40 more instead of $175 more. I'll have to think on that.

It seems odd for a new member to feel comfortable enough posting a reverse HH, but whatever.

P.S. Your chess coach sounds like an idiot when it comes to teaching, regardless of his rating.

I don't see why it is something anyone would be "uncomfortable" with. But whatever. Apparently, you all are offended by it, I'm sorry I didn't mean to offend. I'm new here, how am I supposed to know what offends you all if nobody bothers to explain why?

Maybe I'm in the wrong place. I thought this was a place to discuss poker positions and strategies. I thought looking at it from Hero's POV in this scenario is much more useful than from my POV. It seems really bizarre to me to not consider the view from the other side in any strategy game. But hey, if that's your thing around here, sorry I stepped on toes. Won't happen again. No need to be rude about it.

About reverse hand histories - they're against the forum rules. I vaguely recall seeing some explanation why, but understanding why isn't required for understanding that a rule is a rule.

We were all new here at one time. It's not a bad idea to familiarize ourselves with posting rules whenever we join a forum. If this is your first time joining any forum, well, consider this a friendly bit of advice - read the rules.

I don't think the stack size is the problem here. The problem is just what I said - your line doesn't make a lot of sense, and looks like the typical stabbing many low-stakes players will do on the river when their opponents check.

Low stakes players typically check the river with showdown value, but they're checking to check-call, not check-fold.

Your nut and second-nut flushes are combos that are likely to have 3B pre. Maybe you smooth call with the worst AX combos, and KJ, but that's not very many combos, and a lot of those just fold on the flop.

The rest of your flushes were combo draws on the flop or turn, and would want to raise flop or turn, at least some of the time, assuming you're never 3B'ing any of them pre. If you actually had a flush, you'd be more likely to bet smaller, because your opponent caps his range when he checks the river.

It's hard to credit you with Jd9d here, because that combo mostly folds on the flop. Your most likely value combos are just 6d5d and 9d7d. You're basically repping one, maybe two combos for thick value here.

Since you posted a reverse hand history, look at it from JJ's point of view. BTN isn't likely to get to the river with random QX. T8 raises turn. Maybe BTN runs into Q8, but how often does Q8 call pre, call flop, call turn, and then jam river?

Like I said, your line just isn't very credible.

The posting rules and tips sticky at the top of the forum explains in greater detail the reasons.

Mostly it comes down to people getting confused, and in some cases, feel that they were "tricked" amd get angry.

Anyway, as Doc says, it's the rule, so there ya go.

Yeah, I see that now. Didn't see them before. Anyway, won't happen again.

Its an underbluffed spot, especially at 1/2. Its probably underbluffed because most 1/2 population under folds properly. In theory its a good bluff. In practice a bluff has to write a story AND the opponent has to know how to read. Most at 1/2 can't read so you are telling a story they can't comprehend. They have JJ calling.

Curious, if bizarro hero bets pot on turn are you floating with intention to bluff?

Donkatruck raises a good point - hero's bet sizing of 1/2 pot on flop and turn isn't small enough nor large enough to accomplish much in the way of defining anyone's range here. BTN probably isn't hatching plans to steal the pot if hero check-raises flop or pots it on the turn.

BTN can look at that c-bet and barrel sizing, and infer that hero isn't a very good player, and could just be monkey-betting with all his over-pairs, top pairs, and draws.

But bad players are less likely to make "smart" hero folds when we try to steal the pot from them. Bad players are more likely to get married to the big pairs that raise pre, c-bet flop, and barrel turn, and bluff catch with those hands.

It looks like hero isn't sure how to size his bets, so he's just betting 1/2 pot, thinking he's probably good with his over-pairs and top-pairs on the flop, but maybe worried BTN may have improved on the turn. He knows he's bluffing with his draws.

Just because hero checks the river doesn't mean he's checking to fold everything that didn't nut up.

Hero could be sandbagging his made hands on the river, to check-raise. He could be checking to check-fold all his un-paired over-cards, all his low-middling PP's, and all his air. He could be checking to check-call with all his hands that got downgraded, and may or may not be good now, but don't want to bet and get raised.

If BTN wants to target the parts of hero's range that will fold, he doesn't need to jam. AK and small-middling pairs are likely to check-fold to a much smaller bet. The rest of hero's range is either beating BTN into the pot, or sigh-calling.

No, I think if he bets even normal on the turn at 75%, I probably just give up. Half pot felt weak/fearful to me, and that's why I thought maybe I could steal the pot with what was probably my worst possible holding. If the cards were face up and I knew he was paired, I'd have given up, but I really thought I was targeting Ace High or a random A10/A8. And I think a tighter 1/2 player is probably folding ace high a lot on the river. JJ seems to be the only pocket pair that would play this way. I sensed weakness, so I probably overreached looking for an opportunity to bluff.

The better execution if I want to bluff is probably re-raise the turn and go away if he puts up resistance. I think with this particular hand, he probably wasn't going away no matter what. But if he was just betting AJ-AK or KJ-KQ, a reraise on the turn probably wins with a lot less at risk against most players. And if he calls, I can get lucky or just give up the river. If he jams with JJ-AA on the turn, then I can easily fold with a relatively low equity draw anyway.