Live $1-$2 at Parx
effective stacks: $300

Main villain in the hand is a bad LAG

UTG: limps
UTG +1: folds
MP: limps
MP2: fold
HJ: limps
CO: folds
But: (hero) raises to $15 with KsJc

UTG and HJ call

so pot is about $50
Flop comes: Jd, 8s, 2h

UTG: checks
HJ: bets $30
Hero calls
UTG folds

Pot: $110

Turn: 5c
HJ: bets $30
Hero: calls

Pot $170

River: 2d

Villain bets: $100

I tank and some jerk calls the clock.

I ask if I fold if he will show and he says "what do I have to say to get you to call?"

He then asks if he can table his hand and inadvertently shows me the 9d.

I reluctantly throw in the black chip as it had been a really good session and he shows me 9d, 2s.

Just wondering what you guys think...

Your call on the river is marginal without knowing more about V.

I am not a fan of your raise pre with KJo after 3 limpers and still having blinds to act after you. Just limps along and hit top two or better. Raise after one limper/ maybe two..but three limpers makes this borderline bad @ LLSNL

Just fold preflop. Don't post results or results oriented subject lines.

I actually like the raise PF OTB so long as you can read hands well and have a large postflop edge. Some may go with the standard "don't play the rookie hand, reverse implied odds etc." but at LLSNL this hand can be profitably raised in position after 3 limps because more often than not, the callers will actually lose more due to RIOs since they are prone to limp call hands like K-10o or J-8s. FWIW I sometimes call in this spot too, especially if my image isn't good, but I feel a raise is more profitable in the long run.

Flop is standard, nothing else to really do.

I'd raise turn. 99% of the time, when an aggro fish donks the same small amount two streets in a row, his range is capped at TPGK hands. I think the best hand he using this sizing with is K-J (and honestly, I feel he'd still probably bet $45 with something like K-J), so id raise to $95 for value. FWIW, I raise on the smallish size here because I know his range is very weak and he's almost always drawing to 3 or 5 outs.

As played, the river is pretty gross since he shows you the 9d and the only hand that beats you is 9-2o since the 2d is on board. The only problem is that it feels like he wants a call when he shows such an absurd card, which tends to mean he has a monster. I'd probably call and feel ridiculous for not raising turn.

GRUNCH (means I didn't read any responses)

Okay, so right off the bat, if I'm up against a bad LAG I want to get some juicy value out of him because he's likely to chase or overvalue TPWK or Mid pairs because that's what Bad LAGs do.

Like the preflop raise, but a little worried about the UTG limper, plan should be to cbet pretty much 90% of all flops. We hit TPGK which is GREAT for our hand. cbet is good sized, probably could have made it $35, and great the UTG folded, he'd be the only V i'd be worried about. now that we are heads up against the bad LAG, I'd have a raging boner.


Dear god in heaven, you let him blocking bet you. Google "blocking bet".

He bet almost 1/4 pot and you let him get away with that? Seriously, RAISE HIM ON TURN!!!!!!

Whenever someone does a donk bet or blocking bet into you you need to more or less ignore it and bet a touch more than what you would have bet anways. So, when he bets $30 into you, you should have raised to $100 even.

Calling a blocking bet is a HUGE mistake because now you are letting him dictate the price for his draw. Based on his blocking bet I would put him on all types of SDs (OESD + SD), and 8x type hands that perhaps don't think we have a J. Since we raised preflop a lot of players regard the preflop raiser as having AK and so they think any pair is good because AK is the only hand in the universe we can ever raise with pre...

Anyways, this turn is just flat out awful. You need to raise it to $100 AINEC.

Easy call, no way you can fold, he got lucky on the river

Anyways, i feel that you aren't aggressive enough and may be overthinking things. When you have a TPGK hand on a dry board like this, you should be thinking 2/3 pot bets on every street. If someone donk bets into you for a significant amount less than the pot, you need to raise almost 100% of the time, hell almost out of principle...

And when I say raise turn it has nothing to do with "getting him off the hand" because you lost river (incidentally NEVER post results in the OP, wait 24 - 48 hrs). The reason you want to raise turn is because you have a lot of equity. The more equity you have, the more money you want in the pot. TPGK vs a "bad LAG" on a dry board is pure gold.

Take his ass to valuetown

Raising w KJ on the btn in 1/2nl is pretty standard. In fact, the more limpers the bigger he should raise. As played, his raise on the BTN is ubber standard here.

Similarly, TPGK on this dry a board is usually the nuts in 1/2nl. Granted raising would be really thin, but most of the time, we call we are good here against a "Bad LAG".

Sure, if V was a nit that's one thing, but against a bad LAG, we should have a pulsing throbbing boner on this board as evident by the kind of crap V turned over.

I'm raising this V from CO / BTN every single chance I can get, JTs-AK, 99-AA

well, a nit is never showing up with 92o for sure.

I taylor my responses based on what I feel like is the level of experience of a poster.
This hand was not played by you or another experienced player. For you with more experience and post flop game, this could very well be a raise (even though that by itself can be the subject of a debate ) since you can play post flop comfortably with a trouble hand and extract value when you have the best hand, bluff your way, or minimize your losses when behind.

OP Seems to be not experienced enough to play this hand profitably even IP in a MW pot. Maybe someday, but not today.

Just announcing something is standard and applies to anybody and any situation just because it is standard for you without considering all,other factors involved is not fair to those who come here seeking advice.

When you say "inadvertently", do you mean he legitimately accidentally / unintentionally showed the 9? Or did he purposely show the 9?

If he accidentally showed the 9, easy call (and I play the whole hand the same way). ETA: Preflop I'm either limping or raising; I don't mind the raise if we do it large (like you did), we have a tight/nitty image, table/limpers are tightish/limpfoldy, and actually attempt to get it HU (which almost worked, but not a terrible result getting it 3way).

If he purposely showed the 9, ug, gross spot. Most people would only purposely show the 9 here if they had a 2, cuz they know overpairs could instantly call since they beat TP. I doubt he's smart enough to do a "but he knows that, so..." play. Ug.

GcluelessNLnoobG

dgiharris, looks like villain donked the flop (hero didn't have a chance to cbet it). Does that change your opinion on the turn play at all?

Against a bad lag, I'm in the call/call/call camp. All a raise does on the turn is blow him off his air he is going to bluff all three streets with (and he's drawing pretty slim/dead on the turn in most typical cases). Plus, this board ain't very drawy; the only real draw is T9, a hand he'll make 16% of the time versus the other 84% of the time we let him bluff the river.

Exactly! Why am I raising the turn?. He's a bad LAG, not a raging fish. Raising the turn is just going to keep him from bluffing any air on the river and make him slow down with weaker jacks.

It was def an accident. I kept saying "I know you have a 9, I saw it" and he would say "I don't have a 9."

Also, who cares if he blocked the turn? If we bet for value, as a bluff or to collect dead money/equity. Why am I raising the turn? I'm getting called by worse almost never, I'm not getting him to fold anything that beats me, it's not a super wet board or anything. Sounds like you want me to raise for protection...

If he's blocking the turn and BTW I don't think this guy even knows what a blocking bet is, the only reason to raise would be if his bet was so small that he was giving himself the right price to draw to a 9 or 2.

he bets $30 into $110 so 3.6 to 1 and he's got 3 9's and 2 2's.

11.4% equity

He's getting a bad price on his 5 outs.

I really see no reason to raise the turn against this villain.

After u see his 9, u have to call. Hard to put a guy on 9 2 lol. Pre flop just limp in. Ur ahead of a lot of limpers but people also limp in with hands like aq,ak,kq, aj, and even jj, all of which have u crushed and u still have blinds to worry about. If u flop top two+ then play for stacks. Otherwise just wait for top pair by limping pre and betting flop but fold to any resistance without big reads

Yea, honestly, if I don't see that 9 I fold.

[QUOTE=CyrusJavid;32804931
I am not a fan of your raise pre with KJo after 3 limpers and still having blinds to act after you. Just limps along and hit top two or better. Raise after one limper/ maybe two..but three limpers makes this borderline bad @ LLSNL[/QUOTE]

This is terrible advice.

dgiharris has it right.

To expand on his point, you really need to watch your LAGs very closely to figure out what their bets mean. A lot of times when the LAG fires $30 then another $30 it means they have air, a draw, or 3rd or 4th pair. 2nd pair is dependent, but top pair they're usually betting more. But these rules are all different for individual LAGs.

Turn raise is mandatory.

Now, as you played it, the $100 bet from this particular LAG can mean different things. He could be bullying with weak hands or betting for value. Again, you've got to key in on this LAG and what his big river bets mean.

Since you don't have much of a read, and getting 2.7 to 1 from the pot, I instacall without a thought.

Then I flog myself mentally for not raising the turn, after my session is over.

Please explain WHY I am raising the turn?

Reasons I'm raising the turn:

(1) A bad lag's range is super wide on the flop. We have top pair, 2nd best kicker. We are crushing his hand range. He bet the flop, but he's a LAG so that means he's still alive.

(2) No flushes or straights got there on the turn, and it's a 5. The only hands in his range that improved here are: J5, 85, 52, 55. The rest of the hands have not improved. So since only those hands improved, and we were crushing his flop range, we're still crushing his turn range.

Also, his bet is small, which for LAGs often indicates their hand didn't improve.

So raise, and raise big. For value.

fold preflop, don't post your results you want good assesment you won't get it by telling people he had 92, definetly include the fact he shoed the nine as it changes the hand dynamics good luck next time.

Poker 101,

When you have great equity you want as much money in the pot as possible. So we aren't raising turn to protect our hand as some have erroneously assumed was my point. The reason we are raising turn IS FOR VALUE!!!!!

Against a "bad LAG" THERE ARE A BAZILLION LESSER HANDS HE WILL CALL US WITH!!! He's calling with ANY pair or ANY draw (to include gut shots) because thats what bad LAGs do. Plus he can put us on a whiffed AK because we raised pre and apparently that is the only hand in the universe people raise with...

Then there is the matter of us inflating pot so we can get some juicy value on the river w a 1/2 to 2/3 pot river bet.

Now, does raising river fold out his air? Probably however we more than make up for that with the value we extract and the range of hands he called flop with that will pay us off turn and river. Not raising turn here is a HUGE Jupiter sized mistake AINEC.

Then there is the matter of letting a player block bet you for less than 1/4 pot on turn when there is a draw on the board letting him set the price for his draw....

Calling turn is just passive FPS. You will make the most money in LLSNL by just playing straightforward for value. Trust me. Think about it, if board had two diamonds on flop would you think a 1/4 pot bet on turn was a good idea? Basically giving 5:1 odds?

Think about that? Again we want to raise turn for the f***ing ubber simple fact that we have the best hand and V will call with a whole crapload of lesser hands. This hand is ubber straightforward and I get the sense people are over thinking it.

I think you need to raise the turn against said villain. And the river is a fold, he's not betting that much with worse, he'll spew pre, he'll spew OTF and OTT, but he won;t do that on the river for 100 bucks I guarantee it.

Showing the 9 is gross. Tough spot after that.

Agreed, the only reason I still fold after that is because river speech from fish equals the best hand like always, at least in my experience.

I agree with you, though I would like you to stop saying "ubber"

Grunch.

If you are planning to call $100 on the river why not raise the turn to $100
the $30 bet seemed weird he was probably going to bomb it for more money if he missed his 2nd pair or trip.

When he bets out $30 on the turn this is not a very aggressive move from even a bad "lag". Raise it up with what is likely the best hand and check back the river if that's more comfortable with your hand.

Maybe you guys are right, but I just feel like the "i'm raising because I have the best hand" is what bad players say. That's not a sufficient reason. Yes, I am crushing his range for betting the turn for $30, but am I crushing the range of hands that he will call my raise with? It seems at the very least a pretty thin raise for value.

Maybe I'm calling the villain the wrong name by saying bad LAG, maybe bad aggressive would be better IDK. I just think there is something to be said for the difference between bad aggressive players ie: 56/30 and Super fishy players ie: 63/5.

I could def be wrong and that's why I posted the hand, we are all here to learn and get better.