Awkward preflop spot - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum

100bb effective stacks, midstakes online game.

Donkey open limps in the HJ.

We're in the CO and raise to 5bb with 99.

Aggressive and active regular on the button 3-bets to 15-18bb.

What's your standard play here because I don't really like any option with 99.

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08-05-2008 , 10:21 PM

TucoRamirez

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I think 99 is a fold. TT is more interesting imo.

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08-05-2008 , 10:29 PM

Renton

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Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,822

i would put him to a decision

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08-05-2008 , 10:46 PM

soah

Unexpected

Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 61,667

Quote:

Originally Posted by TucoRamirez

I think 99 is a fold. TT is more interesting imo.

I don't think there's much difference between the two and folding either of them is giving up too much against an aggressive player.

It's not a terribly fun spot because the variance is much greater than the value but the value should be there nonetheless, given the read. Exactly what line to take depends even more on opponent tendencies.

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08-06-2008 , 03:00 AM

onlinebeginner

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Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,892

the original limper folded i assume... ya interesting spot to say the least... call is tough cus your gonna hate so many flops

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08-06-2008 , 04:01 AM

K.O.S.

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 20,798

Weird...I was thinking about this exact situation the other day, and I hate every single option. I probably just muck 99 the first time, but after that, it's pretty situation/feel/read dependent, mostly based on timing and history.

In other words, I have no ****ing clue.

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08-06-2008 , 04:11 AM

BT2

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how is there any difference between TT, 99, or 22?

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08-06-2008 , 04:22 AM

TucoRamirez

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BT2

how is there any difference between TT, 99, or 22?

V's 3 bet range may be TT+/flatting 99-22

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08-06-2008 , 04:26 AM

BT2

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TucoRamirez

V's 3 bet range may be TT+/flatting 99-22

so how is there any difference between TT, 99, and 22?

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08-06-2008 , 05:01 AM

#10

soah

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Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 61,667

Quote:

Originally Posted by TucoRamirez

V's 3 bet range may be TT+/flatting 99-22

but that's not what the OP said...

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08-06-2008 , 07:05 AM

#11

Renton

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Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,822

bt2, even if 22 is somewhat similar (although NOT the same, i got 3-bet/called with 88 the other day), you can't just be shoving any pocket pair willy nilly. Thats just an absurdly unbalanced strategy.

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08-06-2008 , 07:24 AM

#12

Bluegrassplayer

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I think what he means is that we are never getting to show down with 22-10s without improving to a set. We will either fold at some point in this pot or make them fold. It's going to be a pretty odd hand if we manage to get to show down here with just a pair.

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08-06-2008 , 07:27 AM

#13

soah

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uhh what, tens have a ton of showdown value here

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08-06-2008 , 07:53 AM

#14

Bluegrassplayer

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I have trouble seeing how. Lets say we flat, and then the button cbets any flop, how do we just flat again with 10s oop? Do we just call and pray he checks it down with us? I think we have to bet or raise somewhere in the hand, whether it's preflop or later.

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08-06-2008 , 12:39 PM

#15

bboyblitzn

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Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 18

dont open for 5bb. In a full ring setting i think just muck it. If you want to take on some variance, maybe call the cbet if the flop only contains 1 overcards, fold to any further strength or to a really bad board

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08-06-2008 , 01:24 PM

#16

bunga

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Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 866

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kos13

I don't like the fold to the first one strategy. Imo people are more likely to make it a bluff the first time as they think you will give them more credit.

There is a massive difference between 22 and 99, I don't even know how we can have this discussion. If villian is 3 balling 76s and such and he flops a pair and a draw or just a good draw he will get it in, and our equity is good against him. I stack off here a lot more than most regs probably, I just don't see how it can be that bad to play for stacks against a good aggressive player here.

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08-06-2008 , 02:39 PM

#17

CalledDownLight

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Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 88,413

i for one dont think there is a ton of difference between 99 and JJ even until you build up some history. That said, my play in this spot depends on the table conditions on that specific day.

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08-06-2008 , 05:41 PM

#18

Renton

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Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,822

o wow am i getting leveled or are you guys saying we should flat an 18bb 3-bet oop with 99

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08-06-2008 , 05:41 PM

#19

Renton

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22-99 have roughly no difference because we are shoving, not calling

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08-06-2008 , 06:05 PM

#20

soah

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he said a raise to 15-18bb after we make it 5bb... so a raise to 15 is only 10% of our stack. I think there are definitely some situations where it would be best to call and then evaluate flop texture, especially against people who don't balance their c-bet range properly etc.

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08-06-2008 , 07:17 PM

#21

Renton

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minus ev imo

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08-07-2008 , 01:43 AM

#22

bunga

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

22-99 have roughly no difference because we are shoving, not calling

This can't be best.

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08-07-2008 , 02:25 AM

#23

Renton

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its hard to show a profit flatting a huge rr oop with 99 and shallow stacks

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08-07-2008 , 03:27 AM

#24

Proofrock

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

22-99 have roughly no difference because we are shoving, not calling

Of all the choices I like shoving the least. I expect to get called by a range of {JJ+,AK} meaning Villain would need to fold over 55% of the time to make shoving breakeven.

JJ+,AK = the top 3% of hands. Do you think we're getting 3-bet preflop in this spot more than the 7% of the time that we need to be for this shove to be barely profitable?