okay, so i lost my job about 18 months ago, played poker for about half a year after that, and then took a break to make sure that i had adequate living monies. well, i just got my job back, and decided to take a stab at the game again. i play in vancouver, generally at river rock or edgewater when i do. i admit that my game is lacking, as i haven't worked on it in a year, but i have a good grasp of the fundamentals, and understand more advanced concepts. --- all this to say that i hope it'll all come back to me, but i am in a state of confusion as i regain my footing. this hand happened today at river rock...

eff. stacks = $190

Hero in SB w/AQcc

6 limpers

Hero raises to 15 - i think i should have raised more, based on position, and pot size with the limpers already in... thoughts?

4 callers

Flop ($70 - after rake) -7s8sJd

Checks around - With this may callers and a complete whiff, i thought it wasn't a good spot to c-bet. i decided i am done with the hand unless i pick up a non-spade ace or queen..

Turn ($70) -Qd

Hero bets 50 - Into this many players, i thought that $50 was a good size bet to charge draws with 1 street to come, and that i could get a call from lesser queens or a jack.

1 caller in MP- older, plays 5/5, known in the room. Sat down one orbit ago- older(mid 50s?) has called many raises so far, but hasn't raised yet.

River ($170) -5s

Hero? - I can't b/f, a check seems weak, but i am unsure whether i can get a second street of value from worse hands. this is where i was lost...

Thoughts?
Thanks a lot!

well i feel like your hand is faceup right now as kq/aq type of hand. do you think villain will bluff if you check to him? or do you think he will only snap shove a flush here on river. i mean i guess you might get a crying call from kq or maybe 10j/j9 type of hand and thats pushing it. so basically you have to decide whether or not you think villain is willing to bluff on river. if the answer is yes then i probably c/c if the answer is no i guess you have to c/f even tho that seems terribly nitty.

what a horrible spot to be in,
i agree with kenji08, your hand is face up and any half decent poker player can put you on a Q once you check flop, bet turn, and check flop,

a value bet on the river is really thin, unless you expect him to look you up with 2nd or 3rd pair, i think it's definitely a check and evaluate what villain does

problem is once you check the river, most players will automatically bet any sort of hand in this spot since they know it's not possible for you to have a strong hand, comes down to player tendencies and how often you think he is bluffing as i doubt there's a hand that will be value betting worse that AQ beats

I think preflop set up this predicament. Being OOP and having the world call the raise preflop is a nightmare situation, IMO. So, I'd either (a) raise a lot more to actually have a chance of taking it down now / getting it HU, or much more likely (b) simply limp and play a small pot.

Probably betting closer to $25 preflop with that many callers. You obv know you're not gonna chase out a ton of action with those kind of pot odds.

On the river, I'm probably b/folding here but that play is marginal at best. Check folding will work too.

I think you need to check-fold. Opponent did not bet J OTF, so I'd give them more credit for a FD than a weakish J. If they have the latter, the river will likely check through.

Additionally, the opponent seems more seasoned and could potentially bluff-raise your lead. It is a challenging spot with only a pair and not much of a read on the V. I'd play it on the nit-side.

PF - I'd raise to $23.

Ummm 25 would be way to much preflop ! 15 isn't bad when all check around and you land your Q the board has not changed and you landed top pair top kicker! If the guy is seasoned you can put him off a flush draw because flush draw with posistion will most likely bet the flop with possibility to bluff and take down a 75 dollar pot and if he does get called he has outs and posisition! So a 70 dollar bet is good here 910 would have bet flop and two pair bets flop flush draw bets flop QJ bets flop so the only risk you have is a set so I'd pretty much be willing to get my whole stack in on the turn

Preflop, you want to get heads up as mentioned. Raise size really depends on the table and player dynamics, sometimes 15 is enough but w/6 villains in general you want to raise larger. Prob can be that too big of a raise can be suspicious and screams of AK/AQ/JJ.

Against this villain I'd check river. He would rarely bluff even if check seemed weak. If he doesn't have a flush he'll check behind almost always.

GG I must seem like a stalker to all your posts, but I agree with this one too.

25 or limp pre imo.

Betting the turn is not mandatory in my book.

As played on the river if you think the guy is good and doesn't call the turn without a naked flush draw (and a big combo draw would bet the flop), I think we are ahead still. That said I don't see value anywhere, so I just check/eval, mainly c/f. If you think he ever calls with KQ, maybe we shove.

Seems like we have the same hand a decent %

raising pf is fine, maybe a bit bigger. Not raising loses a ton of value.

Betting turn is absolutely mandatory. You're 6 way and likely have the best hand on a board with a ton of draws. Two pair/straights/sets bet the flop most of the time. Q8, Q7 are unlikely. QJ is going to bet flop a decent amount of the time as well. This is a clear valuebet.

River is a c/f if he bets anything reasonable. Villain isn't going to do something nutty with KQ or a missed straight draw.

Sure, we probably have the best hand preflop, or at the worst are in a coin-flip situation against most hands. Big deal. This is preflop, for a mere $15, and the whole world just called our raise, so very few of the callers are making that big of a mistake since they're getting decent immediate odds plus fantastic implied odds. So now what happens if we go ahead and do something silly, like flop TP, with an SPR of a little over 2? Now what? We get to play our hand virtually face up (noting that any decent bet gets us pretty close to being committed) and OOP whereas all our opponents (apart from dominated A/Qs) get to play perfectly against us.

I guess I want to check because we get multiple calls here always, and are really only getting value from KQ+draws. Seems unlikely if we get 3 calls our hand will be best by the river. I feel like my advice ITT is horrible.

Can't play this pre and not bet the turn. Bet turn, fade river.

The idea that our opponents play perfectly against us is just wrong. People are bad.

If we flop top pair, we bet for pure value. Why are you so scared?

If you're 45% to win a hand at the river and getting 3-1 on your money you should be INSTANTLY taking that shot.

I mean we are in a tough spot, but I think would lead for like a 100 and try and get called by KQ and q10 type hands. I hate checking because i'd hate to hold this hand getting 2-1 if vilian shoves and I doubt vilain has anythin hear. If he had a flush draw on flop he would have built a bot on the flop, and I think we would have heard about it on the turn if he has 2 pair plus. I just don't like checking because I think we miss value from vilians top pair hands, and I think it puts us in gross spots to be bluffed

So we're cool with committing upwards of 100 BB when we flop TP (cuz that's basically what we're doing with any decent flop bet)? TP ain't exactly a monster in a 5 way pot.

I mean, basically the best case situation is the rare situation where we flop TP and so does someone else who we have dominated (i.e. we flop our two outer). Other than than, even people who are bad are sometimes self aware enough to realize when they are playing for all their chips; typically the only hands we're getting action from in these cases is better hands, dominated hands (as I say, rare) or draws (who are sucking up a decent amount of equity).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Idk how vil perceives you or would perceive a river blocking/value bet, but what about a $60 bet here.

Good value-bet for a top/second pair and blocks the two-pair/smaller flushes from re-raising a decent amount.

If he re-raises he may have your number but I think mostly he hit here....again depends on perceptions. Insight?

+1

Although I like a small blocker bet of $30-$40. He probably won't pop you unless he has nut flush, then you can get away.

I don't like a c/c because if he bet sizes right, you have to turn that line into a c/f. With the blocker, you're getting to showdown with very thin equity, but at least you're getting there...and villains at this level will call that bet with KQ, KJ, J10...all definitely in his range.

All that said, DON'T PLAY LARGE POTS OOP WITHOUT PREMIUM HANDS. Your raise PF started this disaster spot. With 4 callers in front, I'd always advocate a limp in SB with AQs at $1/$2.

No even in a big malti way pot you shuold try and build a pot because you will be crushing usualy in situatins where you and an opponent hit the flop and want the pot to play bigger. Personaly I would have made it 20 PF to try and reduce the field.

Sorry sir, I disagree completely. AQs is a premium hand in the small blind with 4 limpers before you. Raise and take the dead money/or get HU.

Why would you want to play this hand with no initiative OOP with 5 villains? That's the worse scenario by far(except played OOP w/5 villains in a raised pot). As someone said earlier, "What are we afraid of?"

IMO you're advocating playing "Lottery Poker"; how do we get away from this hand 6 handed on a A86 flop after we limp and get min-reraised after leading or get raised big by a bad player on the flop?

1) If we flop top pair and everyone folds, we just won 60 bucks bro. That's a big pot.

2) You need to do some math here, you'll find the other people don't have implied odds for just about anything if you're raising AQs. They would be close if we only did this with AA.

3) Worrying about draws sucking up our equity is just wrong. This is reverse implied odds and is an argument against your line. Not for it.

4) Creating a high leverage situation with a premium hand is always a good idea.

TBH, I don't know if he perceived much at all (only one orbit) if he did, it was that I hadn't played a hand since he had sat down.

I had contemplated a blocking bet on the river, but wasn't sure what type of price to lay. With $170 already in the pot, and $125 behind, a bet of $60 seemed too much to put in and then fold getting nearly 5-1. I suppose that a bet of $30-$40 may have worked, though I felt that his reaction may have been to raise a bet like that.

I think that it is probably better to bet the turn, but what do people think of a check on the turn and a bet on the river? That way I keep his range wide, and lessen the perceived strength of my hand. It would become a much easier b/f in that spot.

In the end I did check, he moved all in and I folded.

shove

Analysis please?

I think the pf raise is not bad but thinking more around 20-25 since you are oop the rest of the hand. I def would make ~45 otf as well. You get less callers going to the turn and sets up another bet on the turn where the pot is big enough for the shove. You will then be charging the draws plenty