Live 1/2 game.

I open raise AdQx to $12 UTG+1. $250

UTG+2 calls. $150 stack. Very loose/aggro fish. She plays well over 50% of hands and 3bets a weird range for live 1/2 like 88 and A5o.

MP calls. $200 stack. Loose/passive fish. This guy never folds any pair or draw on the flop. He seems to not lose a ton of money because the other fish will payoff his over bets (always for value) for no apparent reason.

BTN call. $150. Haven't played with him before but seems like a fishy calling station.

FLOP: Ax6d5d
I c-bet $30 into ~$45 (after rake)
Everyone calls

TURN: 7d. Pretty much the worst card in the deck but I have the nut flush draw. I am first to act. Check or bet? Pot is ~$165.

Check. If aggro fish bets u might have to check ship. If one of the other two bet, I think u can fold depending on the bet. Against ak, u have 12 outs. Against sets u have 8 outs. I doubt either of the other two are betting turn without at least ak. Next time raise to $15-18 pre or just limp in. I want one or two callers pre when I have ak or aq or just take down the blinds.

I like what shaddy put. As I read through OP I had similar thoughts. Raise a bit more, in my casinos game 12 bet with 3 callers normally means some monster hands. Your flop bet is fine with me. And the turn I prolly check/shove. If its heads up it wouldn't matter to me which fish b.c. I'm drawing to the nuts with top pair.

Feels like a check to me. Too many people liked the flop for us to be ahead here that often.

Alternative is to push out a small bet to keep the pot small, with a fold to a raise from ABC players.

Why not bet 30 again?

That wouldn't be bad. Maybe a little more, idk if any of these players are ABC as well as fish lol.

im not sure 30 accomplishes anything different than a check.

They aren't really ABC. ABC is profitable in this game.

The aggro player would bet her whole range if this was heads up. But since two people called behind and her flop calling range is really wide she might not be betting here.

The other guy I have reads on likes to call with bottom pair, gut shots, etc... then check down unless he hits or had top pair on the flop. Sometimes will bluff the river, usually only when losing.

Unknown fish is pretty unknown but I saw him over call a smallish river bet with a q-high flush on a paired board, not terrible but he was never going to be good against the players in the hand with a donk+call, so I think he is a level 0, non thinking, station.

The pot being multi way makes this much more complicated

I doubt anyone will bluff you off of your hand being multiway and big. Bet small and evaluate if you get raised.

I auto raise that

You're not in the hand and I doubt anyone at your level in the hand. They're going to play so straightforward.

I

To playertee,
LOL, I am sure you "auto-raise" that. Just curious, which fish are you in this hand?
Or, you're not in the hand, and in principle, you "auto-raise" weak looking bets in multiway pots when the flush card hits the turn, because, I mean, NO ONE ever has a flush here. What are you peeling with on the flop btw that you are now turning into a bluff?

Obviously whenever this hand gets checked through, $30 would be a better play than checking.
I think I am betting pretty strong here. If you don't want to shove fine, but the pot is freakin huge. I suppose we can try to check call and save ourselves if we miss river, but that seems rather risky. Its a tough spot for sure.

Aggro fish obv

Since you are first to act and have 3 people behind you I would check and call or fold, dependent upon what happens behind you. When the 7d hit you are now beat. To continue is only trying to draw out and hit the nut flush. The turn card gives many ways for you to be behind. If someone bets small consider your pot odds and call or fold at that time. A smallish bet is only throwing away your money at this point. A check can accomplish the same thing. I would think that one of the 3 hit the flush on the turn. I do play more cautiously than some, but do have good success as a recreational weekend player at this level. My vote is to check and react accordingly. Let the math dictate what to do.

Check.
If it gets checked around so be it. Pray for a flush and re-eval the river.

I'd call a smallish bet from any of the players in the hand, especially if they exhibit the typically bad $1/2 postflop bet sizing and fire less than $40. See what odds you get before deciding.

Preflop I'd rather bet more OOP ($17), or just check and play a small pot if the table has been this call happy. If the table was tighter and we'd get heads up or 3 handed then I go back to $12.

No

Thanks for that constructive advice.

Do you really want to play 4+ handed postflop OOP?
Either we want to get short handed by betting more pre, or we want to maximize or postflop skill edge by keeping the SPR high.

Yes, it'd be great if we opened to 12 and got 8 callers. You think that would be bad? If we flopped top pair, we could very easily and profitability commit with an SPR of about 2. Do you disagree? We are going to lose some % of the time, but we are going to profit way more in the times that we do not lose.

Also, the bigger we raise, the higher % we have of folding out stuff we want a call from. We could open to 100 or something and play lots of HU pots, but we would be only playing against hands that have us beat.

I disagree.
If we jam / commit on a 9 way flop (SPR of 2 or not), how often are we getting called? More importantly, how often are we way behind when someone calls?
I'd have to go stove some ranges, but I highly doubt that we're good often enough for it to be more profitable than playing a shorthanded pot.
Is this type of hand +EV? Probably.
Is another line MORE +EV? Very probably.


Of course the same logic applies to making larger PFRs ... but I'm not advocating raising HUGE. A slightly larger raise should still keep a lot of A's in the hand, pocket pairs, and _some_ of the more speculative hands. We're losing some value by getting some of the weaker hands to fold, but we gain value by being able to more accurately range our opponents and play correctly against them.

You really need me to spell out hands that we can get it in profitably against on Qxx boards or Axx boards or xxx with the suit of our ace boards? Really? 9 handed and all?
Many of those hands, stuff like 88 on a Q8x flop, will call the larger raise anyway. And if they defend with Qx and flop two pair on us and stack us, while that sucks, do you not agree that they are FAR more likely to flop a Q on us, and have a hard time folding?

To say that there is some line that is greater +EV is not saying anything noteworthy. I haven't done math, which would be pretty freaking impossible, to determine if 11 is better than 12 or if 13 is better than both. So yes, 11, or 13, might be better.
But the general idea of multiple people calling the preflop raise with garbage being profitable shouldn't be challenged.
OR, if you want to challenge it, a better argument would be, clearly, if 9 people call 12, the table might be super loose and we can get away with raising as big as we want, and they'll call bigger. In which case, we should make it bigger. But that is not the point you are making, I don't think.

This is not a situation that calls for a lot of "ranging of our opponents". I am looking for multiple callers pre, and, assuming the stacks are not super deep, I am looking to flop top pair and commit. There is not that much more to it.

Hmm, a bit conflicted here. Multiway does make it complex.

I think I check but not necessarily because I am scared of the 7d. No realistic SDs hit and the fact that we have the Ad makes it less likely that someone has a diamond draw (based on PF calling ranges, not flop calling ranges which would be any two diamonds based on Vs' descriptions). Although 3 callers OTF looks like we are up against at least one FD, descriptions make me think all 3 opponents call with wider ranges (Ax, middle pair, OESD, etc). Flopped sets/ 2 pair are almost certainly raising flop so we can heavily discount them. We still have a ton of equity here but the reason not to barrel is because NOW we will have a tough time getting VALUE from hands we crushed on the flop.

So check with the intention of probably calling given that this is such a bluff-inducing turn. Definitely call if aggro-fish bets and others fold. And definitely call if it's a multi-shove fest because this will give us odds to bink the nuts. If only one of the passives shoves, think about it.

If a diamond hits the river, and we get paid off, like some guy with the Qd or Kd, we should bet the turn. If a diamond hits the river and we lose our callers, we should bet the turn. If a card comes on the river that causes us to lose, we should bet the turn (if they call and outdraw not a problem). If we are beat on the turn, we are very likely going to have to call anyways.
The only reason it seems to not bet the turn, is to either a.) induce bluffs (which seems dubious given opponents) or b.) get value from hands that would fold turn, but will call river if like a 2 rolls off. But I think the odds of a guy calling the river, which is going to have to be a decent sized bet, with 6x, are super unlikely.
I think turn is a bet.

In this type of dynamic we wanna be raising AJ+ OOP which is still EV for value as weaker Ax is paying us off regardless. With a denser table of fish this is particularly what we want to be doing. The rest of your post is good but I disagree with playing such a strong hand so passively when it crushes their shtty ranges.