Hi all,

Been dropping down more lately after a bad run. Hero opens AcAh $11 UTG at 1/3 and only BB defends. BB is bad rec player. $150 eff.

Flop ($18): Kd-8d-Th. X, hero $15, calls.

Turn ($46): 7c. X, hero $35, V calls.

River ($116): 8s. V donks $75. Hero?

Thanks,
DT

I like the way that the hand was played on your end. Pre-flop seems pretty small, but if that’s close to the standard table sizing and it gets the job done, then I’m fine with it.

When we show up to this river, I’m assuming his range will look a little something like this (before he bets).

Kx one pair hands, 2 pair hands like KT and K7, pair and sd’s like 98 and T9, some full houses like sets, T8, and K8 (although these hands may raise on earlier streets, so this is villain dependent), diamond draws, missed straight draws, and then J9.

That being said, once he leads out for a relatively large sizing, I think we can cut a lot of hands out of this range. In particular, a lot of his one pair hands with showdown value probably don’t take this line. If he’s playing a hand like Kx one pair as a check call on the flop and turn, why lead out so large on this river? I think the same logic will apply to his two pair hands that we beat, with the exception of maybe KT some percentage of the time.


With this in mind, our hand is basically a bluff catch, as we’re not really beating any value bets that villain makes. So I would really think about what villains bluff frequency is in order to make my decision. As shown above, there are quite a few missed draws that villain can have, which he may decide to bluff with. If I think villain is a loose passive player, I’ll probably just let it go, as I expect him to check all of those missed draws, making it unprofitable to call. Again, I also don’t really worry about villain value betting worse enough to be relevant given how the hand had played. If I think villain is very capable of getting out of line, then I’m snapping here, as we’re going to find plenty of bluffs to justify a call given how many draws there are that he could turn into a bluff.

However, if readless against the typical bad 1/3 player, I probably fold ap.

Bad rec players at 1/3 don't bluff enough on the river to make calling profitable. He has you on AK and you only have one step above that. Fold and silently thank him for letting you off the hook for a river bet.

what’s going on in this thread

easy call

Why is it so easy? Just curious as to the reasoning since I thought it was a fold.

It would help to know what makes V bad. Need something a little more descriptive. We have one of our better bluff catchers here. We unblock QJ and diamonds. We also unblock Kx that will make some kinda spazzy lead every now and then. That being said, I don’t know if a bad player is going to recognize he’s more likely to have an 8 and then use it to bluff lead river into your uncapped range. You haven’t shown any weakness and yet he still leads into you.

In my experience x/c x/c lead is a strong line so I would lean toward a fold here.If he seems like the type to have some bluffs though, I’ll be bluff catching with this combo.

I would also raise to at least $12 pre. Hey, that extra dollar adds up over time, plus the pot gets exponentially bigger the bigger it starts. My default is $12 for nitty games, $15 for pretty good games. $18-21 for great games. I usually found myself opening to $15 back when I was playing a lot of 1/3.

Agreed. I think our villain type is the most important factor of this hand. I think against most “bad” villains at 1/3 (who don’t bluff these spots often), this is a fold.

snap call river wtf is this

Why though? Genuinely curious, as I thought this would be a fold.

C/C C/C donk bet is a strong line IME. I don't think we're good often enough to call here. Against a "bad" villain it seems even worse. I guess you might see a bluff every once in a while but it's a pretty safe fold for me.

I'm calling if my only read is the guy is bad i.e. a 1/3 player. More information, I may find a fold.

Cause he plays 5/10 and bigger and this is a very strong bluff catcher at those stakes given its strength and that it unblocks bluffs. I’m not folding this hand without a read at 5/10. I think 1/3 is a different story. I mean I don’t hate calling here at all, and there are plenty of villains I’m going to call down against here, I just think it’s a fold on average vs population.

Bad recs at 1/3 are usually passive, not aggressive on the river with TP, let alone air.

Is he bad as in "floats with an 8" or bad as in "bluff/shoves a busted flush draw" or bad as in "only shoves the nuts"

Seems important here.

FWIW, my first thought was busted FD, but that's on my assumption of what you meant by bad reg.

What are you expecting to lose to here? 98? A low two pair that slowplayed and filled up? A slowplayed straight?

Furthermore, what are you continuing here with if you're folding AA? Full houses? Good luck with that.

LOL at thinking AA is no good here 70% of the time. And BTW "villain is bad" is not a good read. What specifically makes him bad?

this is a read dependent play and we don't know where on the bad rec spectrum he lies on so not enough info imo and in those spots i just look at pot odds and call in this situation

bad reg like he thinks it's a good spot to bluff A high?

bad reg like he thinks Kx should donk bet here for value?

bad reg like unwilling to check river with nutted hand out of fear you'll check back for pot control?

Yep I also need to know why V is a bad player? Are they weak/tight, aggro/spazzy, calling station?

What hands are check calling flop and turn on this wet board? Sets and straights should be raising turn.

I think I'm folding here unless bad player means maniac, donk bet on river usually means he has an 8 in his hand and hit his 2 outer.

Played fine, snap call vs. a bad rec.

Might be setting a price w/AK/KQ/KJ? If he has an 8, oh well, but I think a nutty hand is less likely to leave chips behind.

is this a half pot value bet (I know slightly more) with a big king?
if he was so strong why would V not C/R all in?

A crazy high percentage of the time when I call just because I feel like I should because villain is only repping like 6 combos, he just has one of those 6 combos.

If I have to choose between V going x/c x/c lead with air into an uncapped range of V just happens to have it, I’m going with the second. This is a close enough spot where I would want to be there. I don’t think call is bad, but I suspect it’s slightly losing.

I agree completely with badreg here, but I also understand why SABR wants to snapcall. This is the kind of spot where I call every time and rarely win, like badreg is saying. At higher stakes this is a mandatory call.

The problem with making these hero-folds (I consider this a hero-fold) is that you better be 100% sure villain isn't randomly bluffing with some flush draw or QJ combos.

Calling here can never be much of a mistake but folding could be a big one. Are you REALLY that sure? I highly doubt it. That's why I said snap-call this.

To be fair, I’m agreeing with both of you. And like I said, I’m calling this spot all day even though I think I’m often losing. If it’s a nitty bad reg, that’s the exception that might lean me to folding. At lower stakes so many players are under bluffing here, but they’re also value betting worse sometimes too.

I think "bad players" frequently bluff like this because all they think about is "I missed" without taking into consideration that they don't play very many value hands like this.

I would need a strong read of "villain almost never bluffs" before considering a fold here. Even then I probably call. I don't like folding.

SABR, when is the last time you put in a 6 hour or more session at 1/3 at a casino?