1/2 $500 buy in

villain-seems competent. Hasn't been at table long but looks and acts the part. nothing of note really, ear bud in, ravens gear, regularish low buy in tourney guy. ~$275

hero-not doing to much, picking spots, has made a few lighter calls otr and have been good. Pretty clean image. ~$650


6 way limped pot, hero checks option in the BB w/ J8 (~$10)

flop 739

I lead for 1.5 pot $15 villain calls quick from emp, everyone else folds (~$40)

turn 8

hero leads $35, villain raises to $75, hero?

Ok so I have a lot of thoughts here. First his small raise feels like JT/56 a bunch, but he's unknown so it could be a turned 2 pair as well. I'm in the BB in a limped pot so I can certainly have the nuts, yet he's not caring. The pot was small, but I did over bet flop, not sure if he peels w/ a gutter and overs or not (JT)?

More importantly, if I flat, I feel like I'm so face up as a FD that I'm never ever getting value otr when I hit. If I would spike a 3rd 8 I think I'm only getting action if I'm beat. The T puts a 4 card straight on the board. Any river bet by me pretty much demands I bet/call, even though I'm either beat or chopping on the T.

So jam turn? I'd fold NFD's and maybe 2 pair(maybe not idk) Seems to be a bit of an over play but I just hate calling in this spot oop and w/ his stack size. Thoughts on lines please. and include how your playing rivers if your calling.

I know this seems trivial but I'm still thinking about it 8 hrs later

I'm going to hone in on this. So you fold these hands, but have to make a *tough* decision with gutterball/FD+pair?

Aside from this I hate the flop overbet/turn lead combo, especially with flop bet getting called. Betting flop is ok, but don't overbet. Turn is a c/c or c/f, depending on Vs sizing.

/rant

As played call lead any jack d 10 river I don't get what's so annoying

Cf turn is lol bad

Why pfr so much? If a set raises doesn't that lower your ev?

I love the turn card and your bet. Did he really turn a str8? I'm hoping he turned top 2. At least now it seems he doesn't have a bigger flush draw. You're getting almost 4:1 so you don't need implieds, call.

I see the problem if you river 2 pair or trips and he keeps betting. It's easier to fold if a J hits river as any T makes a str8 but if an 8 hits and he keeps betting, I think you can still get away. If the T of diamonds hits you may get a call from TJ and 56dd.

I don't understand what you mean in the first paragraph? Can you explain?

As for over bet, yeah IDK, it's a limped pot, I have a monster, I want money in the middle. C/C turn seems kind of bad, no? I can rep the nuts pretty easy in a limped pot out of BB. He can certainly fold better. The 8 improved my hand. Calling oop w/ draws is super weak and I try to avoid it at all costs. (If) I bet bet/3bet itlooks pretty strong. and I block the straight on his end fwiw

Check/folding is just insane?

There wasn't a pfr, it was a limped pot.

I'm oop also.

pfr=mistype.

you being oop regarding my last para, you checking is implied, thus check folding.

Because if take a bet/ bet/call line, I look like I have a FD almost always, and I never get value otr when it hits.

and remember it was a limped pot and there were like 4 guys to act when he called my initial flop bet. combine his position w/ the board and he never has a flopped 2 pair or set. He'd raise these the first time around on the flop.

So when he raises the turn the only 2 pair he has is w/ an 8 (which I block) which means an 8 river would give him a full house.

Also if he has the NFD/ higher FD or a random bluff that beats J high I don't want him going to the river w/ any of these hands.

Stack size isn't great.

I block JT, which is what he's repping (along w/ 56)

a river T puts a four card straight on the board. tough to get value/ could easily find myself having to bet/call river hoping to chop at best.

so your saying to call raise, then check my entire range on the river? calling if I improve, folding if I miss? I'm not sure if that's what you mean.

The problem with that imo, is that I'm losing to much $ calling the turn raise if I don't get value when I improve otr. and I don't think he bets for me really ever.

No. I'm sorry I wasn't clear. Call turn. River: check fold an 8 or a J but bet out a diamond and check call a non-diamond T. If it's the T of diamonds, when you bet out can get called by any J or by 56dd. I know that's a thin range for implieds but you don't need much if any unless I did the math wrong. I thought it was 40 to win 150.

Of course, we could suck out with an 8 or a J and he checks a smaller 2 pair behind. We have many ways to win vs a wide range and getting good odds.

In your shoes I'd want Villains to be calling with weak hands and weak draws. They'd be making a mistake if they did.

On the flop you were a success at causing most of the Villains to fold. Everyone with a weak hand or weak draw folded.

I'm guessing most of the Villains played their hands the exact same way they would if your cards were face-up; I'm guessing you don't have a long history of over-betting the flop in a multi-way pot with air.

Now that you've ensured you're up against a strong hand the strong hand wants to build a large pot which is what you said you wanted to have happen.

Besides the Td there's no card that could come where we'll be even reasonably certain we have the best hand. Seeing the reverse implied odds (only one card gives us the nuts) and having jack-high I'm skeptical that going all-out to build a huge pot is the most +EV line.

The size of his raise and the fact he is a tourney player may increase the likelihood of him raising a better flush draw. If that's what he has he will bet all rivers when we check to him making my line a disaster.

Have you considered his bet sizing? I think you said he would have raised flop with a monster so a turned 2 pair or str8 is what he should have but would he raise the nut str8 so small? I don't think so, nor the btm str8. I need to reconsider. QTdd should be well in his range and other combo draws.

yeah I absolutely want to fold out bigger draws and all weak one pair hands that are currently beating me.

can you explain how your assigning a strong range to villain when he flats the flop on this board w/ 4 players left to act?

he is totally and completely capped at one pair otf and is going to have hit ott or bluff raise the BB who can have ATC and ob lead into 6 people, then bet again on the turn. I want money in the pot so I can barrel him off all his unimproved 9x, 7x, 55-66.

I don't understand your thought process?

I would strongly weight the small raise to a turned straight w/ 78, 98 A4 QT AT KQmaking up the rest.

I really think air raises more. A4 has to pop flop some % of time I'd think.

for him to have the nuts we have to assume he was willing to peel an over bet w/ just 2 overs and a gutter, and discount that I block it (both ends of his value range actually, JT, 78, 89) I have the J8

Your flop bet is 1.5x pot which sounds big and has to be considered by decent players but it's still a small bet in relation to stack sizes because it's unraised pre. I don't put too much stock in his flop call therefore having to be a narrow range.

I think with even 2 pair he usually raises larger and it's never 56 which is 3rd nuts on a draw heavy board; He pounds it.

I think tourney players often have the mindset of busting people so are more likely to make questionable calls drawing.

It's a min-plus raise giving all draws decent odds to get there. Maybe he is bad enough to bet that small in fear or foolish enough to do it with the nut str8.

It really looks like ATdd which I think has 16 outs against you.

Earlier I got distracted by the idea of it being 2 pair or a str8. His turn raise looks exactly like a draw and nothing like a made hand imo. Sorry I've been all over the place in this thread.

The idea that you don't get paid when a flush hits is laughable at best. A shove on the turn would be terrible. Prefer you check turn but as played call. And lead river diamonds.

So you would check/call oop hoping to hit a , then lead river when you hit? What range are you giving him? Are you bet/calling?

What is he calling the river w/ after we take that line?

What do we do on non rivers?

laughable at best? So you recommend playing draws as weak/passive as possible oop, hope to hit, then hope to get paid? That's what your recommending right?

Ok, if your weighting him toward flush draws it would be a disaster to let him get to the river like this then (small $40 raise).

So your in the re raise/jam camp? Is there any amount other than all of it we can bet to get him to go away?

I don't think you should immediately jump to "jam" after deciding "call" isn't a great option. There's a third option that might be the most profitable.

what would you recommend? Like $110ish?

Just look at the math. The pot is already $150 and it is $40 to call. We are 25% to win vs sets, 25% to chop or better vs JT, 34% vs top two pair and even better vs other two pairs. Villain made a critical mistake by giving us the correct direct odds to call vs made hands here.

Regardless, players that check raise the turn don't easily fold rivers even when they know they are beat. If this villain is one of the few that can find a fold we can make a tiny value bet on the river that will be near impossible to fold given lol pot odds.

I'm definitely calling this raise and leading any diamond or 10 river, check-folding the rest.

His range here is consistent with a ton of made hands at 1/2. He can have 98, 78, 33, 77, 88, 99, 56. He can also be playing AA/KK/QQ/JJ very weirdly (I've run into this several times at 1/2. They limp a monster hand, call with it on the flop, then blast the turn because they think their overpair is the nuts. Then they tilt hard and complain loudly about how big pairs always lose for the).

I suppose he can also have the nfd here, but I expect it to be a smaller part of his range than others are suggesting. He has the nut draw, he has position. If he isn't semi-bluffing the flop, and he didn't improve on the turn, he's usually going to just take the cheap river card and try to hit gin. The one exception would be a10d, which just picked up an open ended flush draw, and now feels invincible.

I hate a 3! here, because the pot will be $190+your raise, and the hand only began at, what, $250? V has committed 40% of his stack. V has a strong made hand or a strong draw. Our fold equity here is slim.

But, by that same logic, V is going to have a really hard time folding to the river scare card makes your hand. If you call his raise, the pot will be $190. If you bet $100 on a diamond or 10 river, is he really going to fold his awesome two pair, set, or smaller straight?

He should, but this is 1/2. A lot of the profit in 1/2 comes from Vs who can't fold.

I was thinking fold. But I don't necessarily agree that call is off the table.

I was trying to paraphrase/understand your post.

1. You said you had a monster and wanted to build a pot.
2. Then you said you wanted everyone to fold when you bet.
3. But now you're saying that you expect that hands that call you are always going to be weak hands.

I thought it was customary when one bluffed that you assumed people would fold their weak hands!?

Now you're on the turn having represented a monster, but actually having a bluff hand and you've gotten raised. It seems like a pretty simple decision of what to do.

Here's my thought process:

You chose to overbet the pot oop with jack-high (pretending or believing??? it was a monster). I think you chose the absolute worse line for your hand. I think the best hands to overbet the flop with are the nuts (or close to it), and carefully chosen bluffs like gutshots (e.g. JT or even 56 on the flop). When you get raised it's always clear what to do. You never have to fold a hand with tons of equity and you have more outs to the nuts than J8dd.