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AKss in BB AKss in BB

01-08-2013 , 03:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5CardDrew
Against a nitty villain I'd agree, but I'd rather bet/fold than check/call against a LAG in this situation.

Someone who wouldn't call the flop without a hand, and wouldn't bet the turn light, you could take that line or even check fold against a super nit.

But LAGgy villains float cbets and bet just because you check to them. When you lead the turn, you make them put their stack on the line if they want to play back at you.
In my mind, this is backward. Against aggro villains, you should be more willing to check, since they're more likely to put you in bad situations and also more likely to give value by bluffing. Against tighter more straight forward players the default should be to bet since they are more likely to play straight forwardly, giving us easy decisions. The chance of being bluffed off the best hand is also much lower.
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01-08-2013 , 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocketman14
I was slightly uncomfortable with betting the turn but I did so anyway not wanting it to seem as my flop bet was a weak c-bet.
Against a aggro player, this is a perfect reason to check the turn imo, not to bet it. Off the top of my head, the only reason (I stand to be corrected) we want "control" of a hand / betting lead / etc. (that a lot of people harp on here far too much, imo) is when we're bluffing/cbetting and are wanting people to fold. Otherwise, when we actually have a hand, feigning weakness by checking and letting aggro players take the lead and attempt to fold us is fine.

Appearing weak with TPTK against an aggro villain is a good thing, not a bad thing.
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01-08-2013 , 03:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spikeraw22
In my mind, this is backward. Against aggro villains, you should be more willing to check, since they're more likely to put you in bad situations and also more likely to give value by bluffing. Against tighter more straight forward players the default should be to bet since they are more likely to play straight forwardly, giving us easy decisions. The chance of being bluffed off the best hand is also much lower.
My thinking exactly...
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01-08-2013 , 03:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LolPony
Have you ever seen anyone call a decent sized 3b with AQ or AJ? (let alone proceed to stack off on A hi boards?) Because I haven't. (even "lags"). When raising I think we fold out everything we want to keep in. Unless he calls really wide pre and folds a huge % of the time to cbets I don't still don't like raising.
Playing AK oop in a MW pot isn't as hard as everyone thinks.
You must be in the wrong games bud. Ive seen fish think AQ on a A high board to be pure nuts. Flatting pre is a horrible play. I cant believe people are even arguing it. Half the advice is saying flat pre OOP 4 ways then when you hit your A on a board with a straight draw you want to check call IF someone bets? You have AK on an A high board and playing like a passive fish with pocket 4s or something. Make it around 30 pre. C bet flop. Lead out turn, and this is most likely a fold after the re raise.
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01-08-2013 , 03:43 PM
yeah the more aggro your opponent the more interested you should be in check/calling OOP with your 1-pair hands vs bet/folding.
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01-08-2013 , 04:08 PM
To those that say we should CC because the villain is aggro, not despite it, in most situations I agree.

The trouble I have with this one is our relative hand strength and the board. I think it's really hard for anyone to be bluffing here.

If we take a bluffcatching line, we have a tough decision because we have an opponent prone to bluffing on a board where it's hard to imagine he's bluffing.

If we make a bluff expensive, I'd say that makes the decision easier, not harder.
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01-08-2013 , 04:11 PM
Btw, on the flip side, I'm not suggesting we bluff catch a nit here either.
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01-08-2013 , 04:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5CardDrew
To those that say we should CC because the villain is aggro, not despite it, in most situations I agree.

The trouble I have with this one is our relative hand strength and the board. I think it's really hard for anyone to be bluffing here.

If we take a bluffcatching line, we have a tough decision because we have an opponent prone to bluffing on a board where it's hard to imagine he's bluffing.

If we make a bluff expensive, I'd say that makes the decision easier, not harder.
It was hard for me to believe it was a bluff with him knowing I was representing strong pre in EP and he has had no reason prior to think different. He had to know that the board hit me fairly well I don't think he's good enough to realize this is a good spot to bluff.
I'm convinced I should have just checked on the turn and re-evaluated my plan from his action at that point.
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01-08-2013 , 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by animal kingdom
Pre flop is terrible. Make it at least $25
+1

At leeeeeaaaasssssttt $25....I'd be making it close to pot
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01-08-2013 , 05:07 PM
I'd rather c/c $75 on the turn and c/c $125 on the river when the V is betting with some bluffs in his range than b/c $75/$100 on the turn with my hand face up and leave one PSB on the river for 200bb.

Getting too attached to TPTK OOP is one of the ways fish get stacked, right?
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01-08-2013 , 05:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angrist
I'd rather c/c $75 on the turn and c/c $125 on the river when the V is betting with some bluffs in his range than b/c $75/$100 on the turn with my hand face up and leave one PSB on the river for 200bb.

Getting too attached to TPTK OOP is one of the ways fish get stacked, right?
I agree with not getting married to cards and wanting to play them just because they're pretty. I thought the flop was good for me when he didn't re-pop but It's the turn that made everything start to look ugly for me. I believe a check/call-fold for turn should have been my plan after the 10h peeled off. I got away from conventional thinking here and bet OOP instead which lead me to this discussion.
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01-08-2013 , 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicWon
+1

At leeeeeaaaasssssttt $25....I'd be making it close to pot
I still think he calls the $25 here just as easy as he calls $18. He's opened with a raise about 50% of the time since he got stuck. My main reasoning for the raise was to get the mp players out to at least isolate for HU play against Villain. The only part of this hand I don't think I misplayed is pre unless a raise to 35-40+ was in order. But hey, that's why I'm here discussing it with you guys.
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01-08-2013 , 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocketman14
I agree with not getting married to cards and wanting to play them just because they're pretty. I thought the flop was good for me when he didn't re-pop but It's the turn that made everything start to look ugly for me. I believe a check/call-fold for turn should have been my plan after the 10h peeled off. I got away from conventional thinking here and bet OOP instead which lead me to this discussion.
Yup.

The flop is fine, but I'd apply the same logic against an aggro opponent that I advocated on the turn. Check to him and let him c-bet with nearly his entire range. Leading isn't bad since a lot of players will still call you light anyway.

The turn is where I look to shorten the hand when I don't want to go three streets on large (2/3 pot +) bets. If it goes check-check on the turn, you can fire the $75 OOP on the river, and call a $100 raise no problem. (Stack leverage!)
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01-08-2013 , 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocketman14
I still think he calls the $25 here just as easy as he calls $18. He's opened with a raise about 50% of the time since he got stuck. My main reasoning for the raise was to get the mp players out to at least isolate for HU play against Villain. The only part of this hand I don't think I misplayed is pre unless a raise to 35-40+ was in order. But hey, that's why I'm here discussing it with you guys.
Look I'm not advocating to raise so he will fold. I want to raise an amount that he will call while hopefully losing one or both of the other villains. I want initiative in this hand and I want to keep it. If he just calls pre then he lost the war. At these stakes there is so much pure profit being gained by Hero building the pot with a premium vs what should be a dominated calling range of villain ( I don't just mean AQ AJ) I also don't care if we make our hand or not as we play better post flop we will show a profit. V needs to make/hit his hand to continue not us.......... This is the same reason we should be 3 bet squeeZing our Axss hands here too. Put Villains in positions to have to make a hand and we profit
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01-08-2013 , 06:11 PM
1 other point about preflop ...... By raising we also force V to reveal his hand strength/range as he never flats AA KK here. He's got 2 villains behind so he can't screw around and get fancy on us. He CAN flat AK QQ JJ-22. All of which we can steal onthe flop or later streets. If we get him to call $25 with AK and fold otf or later then we win the reciprocity war
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01-08-2013 , 07:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpusOne
You must be in the wrong games bud. Ive seen fish think AQ on a A high board to be pure nuts.
I never said fish don't stack off with AQ on an A high board. I said I haven't seen a fish call a big 3b then stack off with AQ on an A hi board.

Even whales and fish know that AQ isn't a very good hand in a 3b pot. The street they play the best is preflop.

Also to say "never call AK oop in a MW pot" is pretty silly.
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01-08-2013 , 08:42 PM
This looks like a tough decision created by your small 3bet creating a bad SPR for your hand, but I'm having a little trouble calculating SPR because the numbers seem not to add up. You 3bet to 18 and got one caller, and two people called 7 but folded to 18. So that's 18x2=36 plus 7x2=14 of dead money. That's 50 in the pot before rake, and you're saying the pot was 41 going to the flop. Was there a NINE dollar rake on a $50 pot?!!

Anyhoo, assuming eff. stacks are 650 even if the MP callers stay in, I see two ways to play this. You could flat in the BB and play your AKss as if it's Axss. So you're playing the hand underrepped, four way, for flush value, with an SPR of ~23 if I did the math right. That's not terrible. Alternatively, you could raise to 35-40. Assuming you still have the one caller and the dead money, you're gonna end up with an SPR of 7-8, and now you can play your hand like AK and make your commitment decision when you flop your ace. Problem with this decision is your small 3bet left you too deep to play your TPTK but too shallow to play this as a drawing hand. And now you're in a position to get bluffed.
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01-08-2013 , 11:42 PM
I'm fairly new to this forum stuff, please somebody, w.o being a douche, what the heck does imo mean.. my common sense just can't figure this one out lol
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01-09-2013 , 12:17 AM
In my opinion.

Try google next time it probably pops up right away.
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01-09-2013 , 12:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elan Vital
This looks like a tough decision created by your small 3bet creating a bad SPR for your hand, but I'm having a little trouble calculating SPR because the numbers seem not to add up. You 3bet to 18 and got one caller, and two people called 7 but folded to 18. So that's 18x2=36 plus 7x2=14 of dead money. That's 50 in the pot before rake, and you're saying the pot was 41 going to the flop. Was there a NINE dollar rake on a $50 pot?!!
Good detailed reading... I had the math wrong from my notes and missed a line when I wrote it down from after that hand.... Should have said $51 with the extra $1 coming from the sb fold.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chino85
I'm fairly new to this forum stuff, please somebody, w.o being a douche, what the heck does imo mean.. my common sense just can't figure this one out lol
IMO=In My Opinion
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01-09-2013 , 12:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elan Vital

Anyhoo, assuming eff. stacks are 650 even if the MP callers stay in, I see two ways to play this. You could flat in the BB and play your AKss as if it's Axss. So you're playing the hand underrepped, four way, for flush value, with an SPR of ~23 if I did the math right. That's not terrible. Alternatively, you could raise to 35-40. Assuming you still have the one caller and the dead money, you're gonna end up with an SPR of 7-8, and now you can play your hand like AK and make your commitment decision when you flop your ace. Problem with this decision is your small 3bet left you too deep to play your TPTK but too shallow to play this as a drawing hand. And now you're in a position to get bluffed.
I agree with putting the tough decision on myself. But, I almost feel if I flat pre I'm really stressing the 2nd heart on the turn because of the other combos of straight draws.

I had thought about just check calling flop and turn but I think that UTG still makes a flop bet similar or larger(because of multi-way)which still leads me to the turn where I again should most likely check, especially if the 2 mp players hit any part of the flop and decide to stay. Maybe I'm just over-thinking this too much.
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01-09-2013 , 12:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocketman14
I agree with putting the tough decision on myself. But, I almost feel if I flat pre I'm really stressing the 2nd heart on the turn because of the other combos of straight draws.

I had thought about just check calling flop and turn but I think that UTG still makes a flop bet similar or larger(because of multi-way)which still leads me to the turn where I again should most likely check, especially if the 2 mp players hit any part of the flop and decide to stay. Maybe I'm just over-thinking this too much.
If you flat pre, you're playing the hand for flush value. So on this board, playing it 4-way, you've got a bluff catcher at best. But that's your plan going in, so when you give up, you're giving up on a small pot.

In other words, you're not sweating the combo draws because you have no reason to think you're ahead, if you play this multiway OOP. And that's ok.
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01-09-2013 , 12:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LolPony
I never said fish don't stack off with AQ on an A high board. I said I haven't seen a fish call a big 3b then stack off with AQ on an A hi board.

Even whales and fish know that AQ isn't a very good hand in a 3b pot. The street they play the best is preflop.

Also to say "never call AK oop in a MW pot" is pretty silly.
Saying that you want to play big handa MW is silly. Certain hands play well MW. AK OOP is not one.
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