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AKs vs a total unknown AKs vs a total unknown

10-03-2022 , 11:04 AM
Playing $1/$2 at Mohegan Sun in CT on a Saturday afternoon. At a good table with a few badregs and some looser players who seem more interested in their CFB sports bets than in playing good poker.

Hero is 30yo white guy. Playing a TAG style. I have been swinging this session a bit, but I'm currently up a bit and have the big stack at the table. It is not relevant to this hand but other players at the table have seen me both show down big hands and attempt some bluffs.

Two new players sit down. Not sure if they came together but both are "bro" type 30ish white guys. This is their actual first hand in the game. Villain in this hand is wearing an Italian football team's sweatshirt and has gelled hair. If I had to guess based on appearances alone, I would say these guys are action. Both of them buy in for $300 (the max) and hero covers.

Villain limps UTG+1. Someone else limps. The other new bro raises to $10. Hero is OTB with AKhh and 3bets to $35. Villain limp-calls $35. Other limper folds and the bro who raised to $10 folds.

Flop is QJ8r (no hearts). Pot is ~$78 after rake.

Hero bets $40. Villain thinks a bit and clicks it to $80. Hero?

Seems like a spot where all three options are on the table. Against an unknown limp-caller, I do not love the idea of trying to run a big bluff. I would not have cbet on a low flop, as I assume that an action player's limp-cold call a 3bet range is pair heavy and it's way too easy for players to "put me on Ace King." This is a board where I believe I can easilly get someone to fold say 77, so my plan was to cbet and double-barrel on a reasonable turn.

When villain clicks it, I am getting a great price (4-to-1) with two overs and a gutshot to the nuts. Would love to have a backdoor flush draw but I don't. I really want to call here, but I also don't know what the plan is if villain checks a blank turn. Also I know that I can't continue on turn if my hand does not improve and villain bets again. Does this villain ever raise the flop to "find out where he is at" and fold to a 3bet jam?

Last edited by Dan GK; 10-03-2022 at 11:11 AM.
AKs vs a total unknown Quote
10-03-2022 , 11:56 AM
Given you don’t know anything and he limp/took everything to the face, I would start by assuming he’s not good and likely less likely to fold post, but again these are assumptions.

I don’t like reraising here because you could easily get called by QTo/AJ or something similar. I call and see what transpires on the turn. You’re getting great odds and may be able to take another free card if he checks again.
AKs vs a total unknown Quote
10-03-2022 , 12:09 PM
1) I’d 3 bet bigger over this raise. I want more value in this spot especially if we might go multi way. I’d go $40 so I don’t think it’s a big deal just on the small side for me.

2) What is villains limp call 3bet range. Im going to say strong.

3) I’m probably checking back as I’m not happy to pile too much money in here and we can better reevaluate the turn. Different textures that are less connected I might fire a cbet but with villains line I’d be more hesitant generally.

4) we get great odds to call but are we really happy outside a jack here?
AKs vs a total unknown Quote
10-03-2022 , 12:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuchoGood
1) I’d 3 bet bigger over this raise. I want more value in this spot especially if we might go multi way. I’d go $40 so I don’t think it’s a big deal just on the small side for me.

2) What is villains limp call 3bet range. Im going to say strong.

3) I’m probably checking back as I’m not happy to pile too much money in here and we can better reevaluate the turn. Different textures that are less connected I might fire a cbet but with villains line I’d be more hesitant generally.

4) we get great odds to call but are we really happy outside a jack here?
1) I agree on the 3bet size. This has been a theme in posts that I have made on here, I always seem to go a little too small re-raising preflop. Something I need to re-evaluate in my game. My default is 3x IP and 4x OOP if heads up, but there are often field callers or limpers which complicates things. I wish I had gone to $40 or $45 here.

2) Limp call 3bet range is so hard for me to piece together because it is such a poor play. You might be right that it is stronger than I am giving it credit for. I am sure there are $1/$2 players that would limp-call AQ or JJ.

3) I definitely don't hate checking back. Like I said though, I thought he might have a small pair which should fold. I guess I can probably get those hands to fold on later streets though. I would definitely check back some decently-strong hands in this spot (AJs comes to mind).

4) I know you meant Ten here. You are correct. I can't pile in money on an A or a K as they complete straight draws and two pairs. Going to be an ugly spot if I turn an Ace and he bets turn and jams river.
AKs vs a total unknown Quote
10-03-2022 , 03:14 PM
I’m regards to three I think that’s a part of his range small pairs but we don’t need to worry about them folding now
AKs vs a total unknown Quote
10-03-2022 , 03:26 PM
I would not try to outbro a bro, but your experience may differ. As such, I'd call the c/r and prob check back the flop to begin with. Your read says this is precisely the type that "puts you on" (hopes you have) AK.
AKs vs a total unknown Quote
10-03-2022 , 03:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Man of Means
I would not try to outbro a bro, but your experience may differ. As such, I'd call the c/r and prob check back the flop to begin with. Your read says this is precisely the type that "puts you on" (hopes you have) AK.
Very reasonable. I am definitely not one to try and outbro a bro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grease
Given you don’t know anything and he limp/took everything to the face, I would start by assuming he’s not good and likely less likely to fold post, but again these are assumptions.

I don’t like reraising here because you could easily get called by QTo/AJ or something similar. I call and see what transpires on the turn. You’re getting great odds and may be able to take another free card if he checks again.
I think those are probably safe assumptions to make.

I did choose to call the minclick and the turn was the 7c, putting out a backdoor flush draw.

Villain checks. Are we just taking a free card here and trying to drill the river? Pot is ~$235 and there's $185 back so obviously there is only one bet size that makes any sense otherwise.
AKs vs a total unknown Quote
10-03-2022 , 05:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan GK
Very reasonable. I am definitely not one to try and outbro a bro.



I think those are probably safe assumptions to make.

I did choose to call the minclick and the turn was the 7c, putting out a backdoor flush draw.

Villain checks. Are we just taking a free card here and trying to drill the river? Pot is ~$235 and there's $185 back so obviously there is only one bet size that makes any sense otherwise.
Yup take the free card. We still only have Ace high, with only 4 clean outs, with a player that we have no idea if they have a fold button.
AKs vs a total unknown Quote
10-03-2022 , 08:46 PM
Call flop. Check turn. Evaluate on river. Unimproved, consider calling a small river bet as bluffcatcher. It would suck to check behind a blank river and get shown something like 77, which you certainly could have bluffed out, but them's the breaks. Hope for a T river.
AKs vs a total unknown Quote
10-04-2022 , 09:36 AM
OK, it sounds like there is pretty much a consensus here to play passively in this hand, especially since we do not know if this unknown (and probably bad) villain is capable of folding any kind of hand. Maybe I could have checked back the flop, but as played, probably want to call the flop XR and then check turn.

Hero checks turn. River is another low club, we'll say 5c. So the board is QJ875 with a backdoor club flush.

Villain checks. Hero checks?

I don't think I can credibly rep too much here on the river. I think I would jam AQ+ if checked to on the turn. I might have a hand like KQs which could go for thin value on the river. But realistically, it's hard to imagine villain folding any hand here that he felt was good enough to raise on the flop. I also have the smallest amount of showdown value, in case villain has KT or AT or AK himself.

Results:

Spoiler:
Villain turns over AJo. Hero is disgusted at villain's play pre-flop and on the flop. Other players at the table congratulate villain on a great flop raise.

It's impossible to say if villain calls a turn jam with second pair top kicker. At the table, I was wishing that I had gone for it. I'm happy that the consensus here is that checking back was the move. Thinking back on this hand, I don't know if there is any way to get villain to fold AJ here at any point in the hand.

Villain went on to lose much of his stack back to the table over the course of the next hour. He made some bad calls. He made some questionable bluffs. He played a lot of hands. Villain busted his first buy-in when he ran T9s into my 66 on 996Kx, so I did get my money back eventualy via a cooler.

The other new bro at the table went on to raise almost every time the pot was un-opened. I found some good spots to mix it up with him as well.

Ended up booking a nice win. Sadly had to leave the table before these guys did, would have liked to play with them all night.


Last edited by Dan GK; 10-04-2022 at 09:42 AM.
AKs vs a total unknown Quote

      
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