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Old 10-12-2021, 08:20 PM   #1
Foti
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AKs faces preflop 4b in deep stacks 2/5

Hero Fish(?) image 350bb
Villain Regular LAG in his 30s 400bb

EP1 limps, EP2 limps, HJ limps, Villain raises to $20 in CO, Hero 3b to $60 with AK in SB, BB, EP1, EP2, HJ folds, Villain 4b to $160.

Hero?

Last edited by Foti; 10-12-2021 at 08:38 PM.
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Old 10-12-2021, 08:34 PM   #2
Playbig2000
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Re: AKs faces preflop 4b in deep stacks 2/5

size up more when your OOP to at least 85.

If he's a reg do you know what his range consists of? Has he seen you 3bet? Does he know what you're range is?

I could do anything from fold, flat or raise depending on the villain, but I prefer raising.
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Old 10-12-2021, 09:23 PM   #3
Joe-exotic69
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Re: AKs faces preflop 4b in deep stacks 2/5

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Originally Posted by Playbig2000 View Post
size up more when your OOP to at least 85.

If he's a reg do you know what his range consists of? Has he seen you 3bet? Does he know what you're range is?

I could do anything from fold, flat or raise depending on the villain, but I prefer raising.
Folding seems unacceptble

Op seems ur city loves the small sizing, 3 limps and a 4x raise from a reg, 3x 3bet from you oop and a 2.5x 4bet from reg 350bb deep

I would call and proceed, may the flop be with you!
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Old 10-12-2021, 10:06 PM   #4
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Re: AKs faces preflop 4b in deep stacks 2/5

Anything is possible here. Folding AKs is tight when the 4 bet is from a LAG but your deep and OOP. Calling is workable if villain will lose some money when you hit the flop, likely for a LAG but not a sure thing. Going for a 5 bet to $400/$450 might be best depending on villain's range when 4 betting.

Your history with villain really matters a lot in this sort of situation. How is villain going to read your $60 3 bet? Is he going to think it's a meh hand testing the waters, look at it as a steal or view it as a strong hand hoping to get calls? Does he have any 4 bet air bluffs? Can he be 4 betting light? How wide is his value range for the 4 bet?
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Old 10-12-2021, 11:21 PM   #5
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Re: AKs faces preflop 4b in deep stacks 2/5

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Originally Posted by Joe-exotic69 View Post
Folding seems unacceptble

I was given the OP an example that without info on the 3bettor, all options are possible including folding to a tight older player who we know only 3bets aces. I didn't see that he was lag.


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Old 10-12-2021, 11:38 PM   #6
aftrglw
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Re: AKs faces preflop 4b in deep stacks 2/5

I think I mostly agree with QuadJ, your history and any observations you have mean a lot here... in other words, what caused you to label him LAG? I could make a case for flatting or 5 betting given player tendencies. Folding is out of the question.

Agree that the 3x sizing is too small on the 3b.
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Old 10-13-2021, 12:09 AM   #7
Foti
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Re: AKs faces preflop 4b in deep stacks 2/5

Hero has some history with villain. Has not seen him 4b bluffing.
In my opinion his 4b range (considering my "fish" image) consists of JJ+, AJs+, AQ+, KQs.
More importantly, I suppose that if hero calls he will face a pot sized c-bet on any flop.
In that case, hero can call/raise with only TPTK plus flush draw.
Reraise preflop gets enough folds to justify?
I think yes, considering the small size 3x initial raise.
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Old 10-13-2021, 12:27 AM   #8
AALegend
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Re: AKs faces preflop 4b in deep stacks 2/5

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Originally Posted by Foti View Post
Hero has some history with villain. Has not seen him 4b bluffing.
In my opinion his 4b range (considering my "fish" image) consists of JJ+, AJs+, AQ+, KQs.
More importantly, I suppose that if hero calls he will face a pot sized c-bet on any flop.
In that case, hero can call/raise with only TPTK plus flush draw.
Reraise preflop gets enough folds to justify?
I think yes, considering the small size 3x initial raise.
The guy sizes small on both the initial raise and a 4 bet - what makes you think he is making a pot sized c-bet on any flop? Also, if he is a somewhat thinking player his range (and prob the actual hand as well) is at a disadvantage on 765 and similar flops. Deep stacks work against him in certain spots too. Hear what I am saying?
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Old 10-13-2021, 04:50 AM   #9
ChaosInEquilibrium
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Re: AKs faces preflop 4b in deep stacks 2/5

Folding is bad, of course, unless you can pin V precisely on AA. If V 4bet range is as wide as you suggest, I like a 5bet to around $500. If you get jammed on it’s a pretty crap spot and you probably have to fold.
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Old 10-13-2021, 06:50 AM   #10
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Re: AKs faces preflop 4b in deep stacks 2/5

The main thing is that if you are going to continue, you're going to be playing for stacks. How comfortable are you about losing 300 BB? If you aren't comfortable with doing that with a pair, you'll want to raise or fold. If his range is as wide as you say, then 5 bet. If you get shown AA or KK (AK doesn't do well against that either), don't start thinking you just caught the top of his range. It was his range.
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Old 10-13-2021, 11:30 AM   #11
Playbig2000
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Re: AKs faces preflop 4b in deep stacks 2/5

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Originally Posted by Foti View Post
Hero has some history with villain. Has not seen him 4b bluffing.
In my opinion his 4b range (considering my "fish" image) consists of JJ+, AJs+, AQ+, KQs.
Well if that's his range, then yes it's basically a bluff and I would be raising for value. I wouldn't wanna go too crazy, anything from a CIB to round 285
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Old 10-13-2021, 12:44 PM   #12
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Re: AKs faces preflop 4b in deep stacks 2/5

If we *know* he’s going to bet pot of roughly $340 on any flop with every hand in his range, calling $100 to see a flop should definitely be profitable unless his 4b range has us crushed?

That said, how many people raise/4b small preflop just to pot every flop?
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Old 10-13-2021, 05:23 PM   #13
aftrglw
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Re: AKs faces preflop 4b in deep stacks 2/5

If he is over c-betting so we expect him to continue on every flop, and you have accurately defined his range, then I like a flat... specifically to exploit that leak. By flatting weÂ’re keeping in a defined part of his range and weÂ’re going to be able to put him in a lot of tough spots on a variety of board textures regardless of if we hit or not. Does he really want to get all in 350BB deep with an overpair after getting x/rÂ’d on a T high flop? ThatÂ’s not counting the times we hit. I think itÂ’s ultimately much higher EV.

I think reraising just makes our hand much harder to play: heÂ’ll likely fold everything weÂ’re beating, possibly Js and Qs and I donÂ’t think its a given that heÂ’ll jam AAs to help us fold. By raising weÂ’ll either win a smallish pot or play for huge stacks against a continue range that has us crushed...
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Old 10-13-2021, 07:03 PM   #14
QuadJ
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Re: AKs faces preflop 4b in deep stacks 2/5

I agree with the posters here. Villain's range is wide enough for calling and if he will consistently pot it on all flops that alone will be profitable. It sounds like a situation where you want to hit the flop and then call down as villain tries to bluff you. That is a nerve wracking line and you will lose sometimes but very profitable against a LAG that can't see when he is beat and stop betting.

5 bet probably folds out villain's bluffs and limits him to the hands that play well against you. The bottom end of villain's range amounts to bluffs. Hands like AJs and JJ are not 4 betting for value.
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Old 10-13-2021, 07:33 PM   #15
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Re: AKs faces preflop 4b in deep stacks 2/5

Raising defines his range and makes him flat pre and fold most flops with most of his range (if it's as described) but If we call pre we're playing OOP vs a LAG who will put pressure on us. If we fold out his bluffs, that's fine we have ace high deep and took down 185$ pre.
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Old 10-13-2021, 08:25 PM   #16
Foti
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Re: AKs faces preflop 4b in deep stacks 2/5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foti View Post
Hero Fish(?) image 350bb
Villain Regular LAG in his 30s 400bb

EP1 limps, EP2 limps, HJ limps, Villain raises to $20 in CO, Hero 3b to $60 with AK in SB, BB, EP1, EP2, HJ folds, Villain 4b to $160.

Hero?
Thanks everyone.

Pot ($342)
Hero calls.

Flop Q84
Hero (SB) checks.
Villain (CO) bets $300
Hero folds.
CO shows KQ!!!!
Can hero donk at this flop? I cannot see any better hands fold.
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Old 10-13-2021, 08:28 PM   #17
Foti
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Re: AKs faces preflop 4b in deep stacks 2/5

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Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
The main thing is that if you are going to continue, you're going to be playing for stacks. How comfortable are you about losing 300 BB? If you aren't comfortable with doing that with a pair, you'll want to raise or fold. If his range is as wide as you say, then 5 bet. If you get shown AA or KK (AK doesn't do well against that either), don't start thinking you just caught the top of his range. It was his range.
+1

Not comfortable at all to play for 300bb stacks with just TPTK (if hits the flop -which occasionally will be way behind also)
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Old 10-13-2021, 08:53 PM   #18
ChaosInEquilibrium
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Re: AKs faces preflop 4b in deep stacks 2/5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foti View Post
Can hero donk at this flop? I cannot see any better hands fold.
No man, don’t ever do this. Always better to just take the aggressive action preflop rather than lead on a flop that’s not good for your range. If he’s actually 4betting you this wide, AKs is a very standard 5bet for value. You can go as small as 2.5x ($400) or up to 3x ($500).
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Old 10-13-2021, 10:04 PM   #19
aftrglw
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Re: AKs faces preflop 4b in deep stacks 2/5

Honestly, I think you played it fine and this is one of the scenarios where we'd have to fold after flatting because a Q is the single worst broadway card for us. I still like the flat more than the reraise for the reasons mentioned before.

Sure, we can revise our assumptions of V's 4b range and that's fine. I still don't believe that V would continue with KQo vs a 5b and we'd be greatly narrowing his range to hands that we're flipping with or dominated. It was the right move and just a bad flop texture and action given our holding.

Agree with CIE, don't donk this flop... raising is a better way to maximize fold equity but I don't believe he's going to fold here on the flop.
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Old 10-13-2021, 11:23 PM   #20
411Heelhook
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Re: AKs faces preflop 4b in deep stacks 2/5

Coulda swore I responded to this thread.

Pre you could prob mix 50/50 call and 5bet and be doing just fine, folding should absolutely be out of the question. Flop is a c/f to that sizing for sure but if he bet in the 1/3rd pot range calling wouldn't be out of the question with a backdoor royal draw and some of his bluffs still beat.

Don't mind villain 4betting this hand occasionally as part of a polar 4betting range, but his flop sizing is absolutely horrible.
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Old 10-14-2021, 03:35 AM   #21
BlueSpade84
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Re: AKs faces preflop 4b in deep stacks 2/5

Villain is a total whale if he pots the flop on almost all boards. Great exploit is to flat more and let villian barrel into oblivion.
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