When playing in the blinds, I think that deception is better achieved by widening your raising range, rather than limping with big hands in a family pot.

On the other hand, where I am more likely to go for deception via underrepping hands is when I am in position in what is likely to be a HU pot, such as when I have AA on the BTN and the pot is raised to me with fairly tight players in the blinds.

lmao this made my day

first, I posted the constructive criticism to help you, you should hot have taken it so personal. And furthermore, most people, when posting hands, start it off with a big long story about things that are not important in the hand, so yes it was overlooked.

AKo is not the same as limping AA for deception, it's not even a made hand yet (not that I would even recommend limping aces). We don't get dealt premium hands hardly ever in live poker, so when we do, we should most always raise it for value and to isolate, especially when there are 7 limpers (a table full of dead money just laying there).
Pc.n.B

yes llsnl is a "beginners forum", although I do consider it a little more intermediate, but most people in that forum would still suggest raising AK over 7 limpers anyway.

If people can't post this question here and learn that raising in this spot is probably the best play, then where are they to go?

GsmallstakesliveNLforum:questionsaboutsmallstakesl iveNLwelcome,imoG

This is what I've been wondering. I like it.

Funny thing is, I would have never considered completing in this spot when I first started playing, and I wouldn't do it against unknowns. I think a lot of poker is table/player dependent. I chose to do something different at a table full of players I'm comfortable with and know well.

No offense, Playbig2000, but I think it's awful to give advice when you can't be bothered to read the entire OP, whether you think it's relevant or not (how would you know if you didn't read it?).

I'm still not following your logic. I think balancing your SB range is so far down on the list of "things to do in poker" that it just doesn't make sense. And in the off chance you DID want to balance your SB range, willingly going to the flop 9-way with AK is just criminal. There are better spots to balance, mainly in position, and as someone else mentioned, it's usually better to balance by raising a weaker hand than limping a stronger hand.

Maybe if there are just 1 or two limpers - fine. I would't do it personally but it can be excused much much easier than choosing to play AK in a 9-way pot from the worst position at the table.

Wow if you can get players to call $40 then raise that pre. As played bet flop.

I'll agree with others and think a preflop raise is best here (and I'm not one that always raises AK out of the blinds). I would lean towards a raise for a couple of reasons.

One, there is a crapload of dead money in the pot; even just taking down 8bbs preflop with A high and moving on to the next hand is a good result.

Secondly, thanks to non-hugenormous stack sizes and number of limps, we can raise a huge amount to setup a smallish SPR where we can simply commit postflop on TP (and thus not be *too* worried about being outplayed postflop). I would easily go $40 (which is 10% of our stack). The only real dicey spot is if we get called by a tricky player who'll float our cbet a lot in position when we whiff; but if he's willing to take that chance for 10%+ of his stack, so am I.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Deception is pretty much pointless at this level. Just play your hand and the money will come flowing in. Other players will do weird things like limp AK in the SB after a bunch of limpers and they will lose lots of money by playing sub-optimally in hands like that whereas we will make the max by playing our hands face up.

there is nothing I could have possibly read that would have changed my decision.

raise pre madam.

ainec

:grunch:

There are times when I limp really big hands in the SB because I hate playing OOP. I'm sure you're hearing a lot of "raise preflop" ITT. They're probably right. Playing 3-handed with $120 in the pot would be fine here.

AP I think we should lead the flop. Just fire out and hope to get raised by an aggro. The only reason I'd check this is if I saw a player on my left pre-loading a bet.

I'm probably bet/raise/jamming on the flop. Betting out the turn, and probably firing the river as well (unless the board is super gross). OK with $20 OTF. Then about 3/4 pot on turn depending on how many callers you get.

Thank you, Angrist. Playing AKo out of position in a bloated pot against decent lags definitely crossed my mind. I happened to hit one of the best flops I could hope for. Why I questioned my lead, which I think was best, but it was sick to see them all fold. Maybe just raising to $50 pre and taking it down was the way to go.

You should still raise AK. I'd raise to 10bb. Even if you get called by 3+ lags, you simply check fold when you miss. Pot will be so bloated they can't outplay or profitably play speculative hands so you just go broke with top pair on almost any flop

I'm raising AK pre here 100% of the time, for value and isolation. I would also always raise TT+, AQ+ in the SB with that many limpers no matter how loose or tight they are. You are giving up too much value by limping those hands. Will raise AJ, KQ,99 or even worse sometimes but it's rare and very table dependent esp if people limp call AK, AQ and/or won't call with worse hands.

If we play at tables where players are good and/or tight, the clear adjustment is to open your raising range alot IN LATE POSITION. OOP you play straigtforaard and tight but still raise TT+, AQ+

I would raise pre .

Sent from my Oneplus One using 2+2 Forums

What is the reason for them to always expect you to hold a big hand when you raise? You say "even though it's not always true" but if they expect it then you must focus on what i would characterize as a leak of not raising or 3-betting enough so this isn't your image. Not only that but if villains have this image of you and you're limping AK 9-way I'm gonna be leaning toward the villains image of your game.

Back to the hand. I'm raising 100% of the time for reasons mentioned by others.
When you factor in your newfound focus of widening your pre-flop raising range (right?) I raise 120% of the time.

Good Luck!

Op, repeat after me: "Never ever never never complete SB". Its just a bad, fishy play. Its never "worth $2 to see a flop". Its bad enough postflop being oop to 2-3 players, dont you think its worse being oop to 7? Either raise or fold. That doesnt necessarily mean 3! if its already raised, just dont limp along.

With AK, you MUST raise pre, never limp. Ed Miller gives a pretty good mathematical proof showing how you dont want allot of players in the hand with AK in PNLHEV1.

Are you referring only to AK? There are many hands we should complete but I do agree most hands should be folded.

This, and limping pre is a Felony BTW.

Completing the small blind is mandatory in many situations, although if it will only get you into trouble then folding is better with what seem to be ok hands, such as QTo J9o etc.

I'm a 46-year-old woman and I give them that vibe. Although I bluff a bit, the bluffs almost never get to showdown. If I double or triple barrel, they fold almost every time unless they have a monster -- and then I can get away. I never show unless I have to. I don't do it too often, and I know whom to do it against, so it works -- very well. Every once in a while, my "bluff" hands hit and get to showdown, but it doesn't seem often enough for them to change their perception of me -- TIGHT.

They will still call me pre-flop hoping to hit, but I almost never pay them off. I've had only one losing session, and that was full house over full house (my KK re-raised pre vs. his JJ, and I knew in my gut I was behind and should have folded!). Not folding tilted me a little that session

Completely disagree. I feel completing from SB is a leak. Of course, I feel that playing limp pots in general isnt a leak, its a sieve. Thats just me, though, apparently.

^ Pretty sure I read somewhere (on 2+2 I think) that if everyone folded their SB blind they would have a higher winrate overall.

Small PP in a game where V's are sticky postflop and willing to stack off with TP or draws? I'm completing.

did you read what I said right after that which you decided to cut out when you quoted what I said?:
I am a big fan of folding the sb. However, there are many hands that should be completed such as PP's, high to med. sc's, and others depending on table dynamics and number of limpers. This was in response to a post suggesting we should either raise or fold the sb and never complete.

Yeah, I read it. And still disagree. I agree with whoever said we should either raise or fold pre.

For instance, if I get 22 in SB with say 4 limpers, I'm tossing out 4bbs. Two or three of the limpers'll call and two will fold (believe it or not, it happens all the time). Now I see a flop with 12-14bbs instead of just 5-6, with half as many opponents. Easier to shovel chips in when I hit, easier to try to steal when I miss (which seldom works with all the stations I see lol, fml).

While it costs more to see a flop this way, I feel I save money cuz I dont play as many wildly speculative (and possibly more troublesome) hands. Also, its not as hard to meet the pot requirements for promotions.