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AKo in LJ after Three Calls and a 3b AKo in LJ after Three Calls and a 3b

03-31-2022 , 03:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Empire36
A cbet here on this board were getting called by 1010 plus.
On the second point Villain calling ak aq is fine. Aq we're way ahead. AK we have position.
jj and QQ we still have the turn when we check the flop on bad boards to improve. Idk. Just seems spewy to me to fire off our stack when we miss the flop that badly.
You're right, a cbet has no fold equity versus TT+. We probably don't have any fold equity versus AK, either. That's kinda one of the main points as to why I think the preflop play is losing so much. The other point is that we probably don't get paid by TT-QQ on A or K-hi flops.
On the first point though: We're a 42% preflop dog versus the villain's range. If we can never take an aggressive action to get villain to fold off his equity, then all we've accomplished by the min-raise is make the pot slightly bigger when we're an equity dog.
Making the pot bigger when we're behind is BAD if we can't get at least some fold equity preflop or some fold equity later in the hand. Worse still: Villain can force us to fold OUR equity, as shown in this hand. So we won't even get to realize that measly 42%, necessarily.

Last edited by ChaosInEquilibrium; 03-31-2022 at 03:46 AM.
AKo in LJ after Three Calls and a 3b Quote
03-31-2022 , 03:44 AM
Id image either way we play this the ev is close.
AKo in LJ after Three Calls and a 3b Quote
03-31-2022 , 03:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Empire36
Id image either way we play this the ev is close.
EV depends on Villain strat obviously. If Villain's strategy is to donk jam his entire range on every non A-K-hi board, and check-fold TT-QQ on Axx or Kxx boards, then our preflop line with AK is turbo losing. Our range holds its EV because we just call down with AA-QQ facing a jam. But that's not relevant to the question of how to max exploit versus the opponent.

I'm repeating myself now, so I'll stop spamming the thread.
AKo in LJ after Three Calls and a 3b Quote
03-31-2022 , 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosInEquilibrium
Regarding the first bolded point. You didn’t post the stack sizes of anyone at the table including yourself. How are we supposed to make accurate determinations about the risk of player showing up with aces/kings without critical info. Anyway this risk is minimal at a loose table where even the most passive player will raise KK+. A jam is profitable here for sure if you give the opponent the fairly wide 3bet range you listed before and you can get TT/JJ to fold by jamming. That said, I am not sure your 3bet range is accurate — it looks way too wide for a passive table. You really gave the guy TT or AQs? If he doesn’t have those hands probably jamming AK is spew.

With regards to your preflop min-raise. If V had checked flop what was your plan?

About the last bolded point: here are standard strategy guidelines I follow (I learned these from training sites). Not saying these are set in stone for your game. But just that these rules should be followed in most instances if you’re trying to play a perfect game.
1. Don’t bet/raise more than 30% of your stack.
2. If the only available raise size is more than 30% of your stack, you should either raise all-in or not raise.

So $75 is fine as a raise size according to those rules, but I don’t like it for other reasons. Mainly, there is no FE with a min-raise. 4betting AK is a bluff and derives its value from FE. For the same reason (no FE), I would actually prefer the min-raise sizing with AA.

One clarification I would offer on the 30% rule: as I’ve heard it, usually the 30% is in reference to the effective stack in the hand. The reasoning being that once you cross that threshold you start being priced in to calling a jam with the worst hands in your range and end up having no raise/folds, so you’re better off just jamming yourself. I think it originated a while back when there was more focus on the value/bluff delineation but it’s still a good rule of thumb imo.

I only skimmed the thread but i do think this configuration can be a bit trickier wrt preflop sizing than some others do (although mostly if it were to occur in a tough game). A bunch of our good hands would really like to 4b here to shut out the players behind who (I think?) we are deep with (esp given the price they will be getting to call), but 1) it will be very difficult to 4b to a size where we can r/f vs sb and 2) if HJ is good we’d rather not have to jam 250bb+ since his flatting range vs our open will be narrow and include some slow plays. These problems mainly happen when the other players are good and sb is 3b wider, but I think worth mentioning bc it’s the type of spot where the 30% rule can be difficult to apply (need to assess vs multiple stack sizes and adjust for better odds you will get from dead money). Vs the described villains/ranges here I’d just rip it though.
AKo in LJ after Three Calls and a 3b Quote
03-31-2022 , 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds
This configuration can be a bit trickier wrt preflop sizing than some others do (although mostly if it were to occur in a tough game). A bunch of our good hands would really like to 4b here to shut out the players behind who (I think?) we are deep with (esp given the price they will be getting to call), but 1) it will be very difficult to 4b to a size where we can r/f vs sb and 2) if HJ is good we’d rather not have to jam 250bb+ since his flatting range vs our open will be narrow and include some slow plays. These problems mainly happen when the other players are good and sb is 3b wider, but I think worth mentioning bc it’s the type of spot where the 30% rule can be difficult to apply (need to assess vs multiple stack sizes and adjust for better odds you will get from dead money). Vs the described villains/ranges here I’d just rip it though.
+1
AKo in LJ after Three Calls and a 3b Quote
03-31-2022 , 05:34 PM
It got tricky because the other villain stacks are around 500, and the 3bettor had a short stack. My conclusion: you can play this hand multiple ways, none ideal.
AKo in LJ after Three Calls and a 3b Quote

      
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