Let's say it's a 2/4 game and you make it 12 with AK from middle position. Some bad player behind you makes it 28 with a stack of 300. Say the guy is playing 30/10, so he sucks but he's not a maniac who is stacking of A6o here.

What's the play?

I ask because it seems like these types of playing have there ranges somewhat polarized to either AA/KK, or some idiotic hand like AJ they are calling a shove with. Since they call the shove with AJ sometimes we have to be content with getting in versus AA and KK a decent amount I guess.

nah play postflop. it becomes pretty evident what option they have pretty quick. just call them and outplay them.

ya play better imo use your postflop edge rather than just gambling pre

Agreed, call.

Our postflop edge out of position though? We only hit an A or a K 35% of the time I believe.

Shove.

what postflop edge. it doesnt exist with ak

yep

IP flat his raise if he is a timid cbettor otherwise raise or jam

OOP just jam, even if your hand is face up(doubt it vs bad players who cant read) you're only a real dog against 1 hand and somewhat against another, and money in the pot makes it profitable vs all his other pairs let alone AK etc. Remember you dont have to play AK the same way vs good players at the table so it doesnt make you as predictable as some might say by jamming here.. esp. if the TAGfish make a note "4bet-jammed with AK oop" next time you pick up premiums raise, the TAG 3bet and you jam 8x his raise he'll snap you off with JJ/TT.. ;-)

how often is he 3betting? if he hasnt 3bet over a decent sample or its a small sample then call, if he 3bets a lot over a decent sample raise/jam

shove and give them high variance pain

I guess I'm thinking of a guy who doesn't 3-bet a ton.

What if they min 3-bet, like he still has 300, but raises to 20 over your 12, still shove? I think you are probably right, but I do see a number of fish do this min 3-bet with AA/KK and their logic being they are trying to rope you in with their good hand.

If you put them on a range and count the # of combos and assign equity then your problem is solved, regardless of whether they actually have AA/KK this time.

If you arent already doing that then you just need to start doing that lol.. thats what 2p2 is for ;-)

Yea, but the difficulty lies in determining a realistic range. Each player is different, and when you talking about players who are not acting rationally in the first place it is more difficult to determine that range.

What range would give you give for the random bad player I described in the min 3-bet scenario of 12->20?

don't shove. make a standard 4bet. it's printing money against these guys as they never, ever, ever, ever fold to a 4bet after min3betting. and they c/f a lot of flops. it's loltastic.

In the scenario I was thinking we are OOP, so I think it makes it a lot more difficult to make that standard four bet, because if we are called and miss, the c-bet is usually awkward where if we c-bet we are forced to call a shove. Otherwise we check/fold.

i don't think a cbet commits you. $80 preflop, 1/2-2/3 PSB on flop.

You didnt say his 3bet frequency and how aggressive he is pf so I have to assume he's average to slightly aggro

Hero
AK

Villain
AJs --- 4 combos
AQs/AQo --- 12
AK --- 9
TT --- 6
JJ --- 6
QQ --- 6
KK --- 3
AA --- 3

That's 16 combos you crush, 27 combos you split, and 6 that crush you.

Even if you were to take the AJs and TT/JJ/AQo out because he's being tight, that's still 3 we crush/15 split/6 we're crushed, still good for a shove.

Don't like 4bet because he almost always calls with ALL HIS PAIRS in his min3bet range & folds all the nonpaired cards that we dominate and our hand plays terrible postflop vs his calling range. Players that look down see QQ or JJ & 3betminraise do not understand that calling a 3-4x 4bet turns their pp into a setminer with no implied odds.

AK plays terrible postflop? lol.

yes it does after 4betting OOP vs QQ or even JJ without sticking it in, do you disagree?

2/3 of the time you miss if you dont cbet he shoves his PP or air since pot is big from your suggested 4bet & you can't call, can you? if you cbet of course he calls or shoves since theres little behind.

1/3 of the time you hit you cbet he can fold since our hand is almost face up as AA/KK/AK even to a donk after 4betting.

Yea, I think you are right. I guess the shoving 300 over a bet of 20 sometimes makes me feel like there might be a better play, but when you look at both calling, and 4-betting (not allin) they both suck, so we are left with shoving... but like you are saying it's still could be +EV, or atleast not horribly negative. When you throw in the outliers where the call with junk it's probably +EV.

"Dealer, i would like to RE-RAISE" ... shoving is lolbad though, let's be serious

i usually try to get all in

I don't really have a problem with calling though.