3/5 NL

Villain just sat down about 30 minutes ago and has played pretty fast, pushing hands pretty hard to chip up to about $750. His first hand played was an open min raise to $10, called by two players, flop comes A high and he bombs for $70 and barrels again OTT+OTR to get a lot of value with AK vs a weaker A. Another hand he raised to $35 out of the SB after some limpers. Two callers with same villain that got valuetowned in the earlier hand. Flop A89. Main villain bets $75, gets called and then raised to $200 straight and he folds AQ. Basically he's had hands when he's been pushing but I think that he's overplaying in some spots.

I've won the last two or three hands in a row either by taking it down PF or Cbetting flop. People should be wanting to look my up/play back at me when this hand goes down.

Hero CO $1200
Villain SB $750

Two limpers to hero who makes it $30 with AKo. Folded to Villain in the SB who takes a moment and repops to $90. Folded back around to me and I'm on the fence with a number of decision/thoughts running through my mind. This thread is running through my mind as the hand is playing out and I feel like villain could be the type to make a move in this situation. I also give him a wide three betting range here of 88+ AQs+. I've noticed that at a certain point in some hands, while trying to think things through rationally, I'll suddenly just go ahead with a particular urge and follow through on whatever that last thought was. In this instance I was deciding whether or not to 4 bet and thinking that if I 4 bet, am I going to call the shove if it happens. It was then that my mind flipped off and something in me said don't be a nit, 4 bet and gamble if he goes AI. After all, I hold AK which makes it that much harder for villain to have KK/AA. I 4bet $200 on top, villain takes about 10 seconds and goes AI and then I call to get crushed for $750 vs AA.




As I'm looking back on the more recent sessions that I've played, I'm beginning to think that one hardly ever gets 3 bet light in LLSNL, even when hero may have procreated an image that justifies it. Has this been the same experience that you guys have had? Am I just valuetowning myself by 4betting anything worse than QQ+ in these spots? I just know that I've been trying to open up my 3/4betting ranges and to try develop as a player in that regard but all I can think of is just how spewy tonight felt and how I'm still sick after that hand.

Most opponents rarely 3 bet anything but QQ+ and AK. No opponents 5bet anything but AA.

I've tried playing a LAGgy game in the past, where I'm isolating very wide and cbetting almost any flop. The biggest leak I have in that game was that I start to think people are playing back at me (which they probably should), and I call down too light or play back light. In the end they have a monster and they're aggression is just a big hand. This hand sounds like a great example of that.

There are very, very few people you'll encounter who 3bet lighter than QQ+/AK. I think this is true regardless of how wide you're opening. LLSNL players are very poor at adapting to your style.

Last month at the Wynn, I encountered a villain who probably had a 40% 3bet percentage on the button over the course of an 8 hour session. I don't think anyone ever 4bet him with worse than AA (except me) over that time period. It's amazing how no one else would play back light against him. Overall, I would not adjust your perception of opponents' 3betting and 4betting ranges based on how aggressive you are.

At LLSNL, 3 bets are QQ+, AK unless you know better. The problem in this case is that if you call, the SPR is under 4, which tells you that you should stack off with TP. However, he's never putting more money in if he's holding QQ or KK if there is an over card on the board. Therefore, while your equity is good enough to call, you have to play the hand passively post flop, since you'll not get action unless you are beat.

Fold and play the next hand.

You mentioned that he folded AQ. This is an extremely powerful piece of information that you have to be mindful of. Basically, yes, he likes to make some moves, but he is ALSO capable of making a big laydown. In effect, there is a good chance he is a decent player.

This is way way different from the other player in that thread you highlight.

For the sake of argument, lets say your 3betting range is accurate. If you are correct, what do you think he will do in response to a 4bet?

Remember, he made that big lay down earlier with TPGK on A89 board. The man laid down AQ. Therefore, given what you know and have witnessed, if you 4bet him and your ranging is accurate he will FOLD!!! Right. Isn't that what you've witnessed before?

Therefore, if he 5bets you, then he's got to have a monster and you have to give him credit for it and fold. ANd basically, pretty much everyone, 99% of the players i've ever played with, 5bet with AA/KK only.

There is a difference between being a nit and being a maniac.

Based on what you've described, villain doesn't come across as a wild out of control maniac. He comes across as a decent player that knows how to exploit weakness but also knows when to back off.

As for 3betting light. It feels like to me that you are just trying to apply a blanket standard in determining if/when someone is 3betting / 4betting light and that just isn't the right approach. You have to look at all the factors.

#1 Who was the original raiser?
If the original raiser is a donk or fish or LAG, this has a HUGE bearing on whether or not a thinking player is going to 3bet them light.

#2 The 3bettor.
Is the 3bettor a thinking player, a nit, a TAG, a LAG. All of this is incredibly important

#3. The position of the original raiser and the 3bettor.
This is also an extremely important piece of info to know before reaching a decision.

#4. Stacks involved.
Stacks play a huge role in helping to determine hand strength.

#5. 3betting frequency.
Is the 3bettor doing this once per 20 raises, once per 10, once per 5, every other raise?

As the originator of that other thread that ran through your mind, I feel bad knowing that that thread helped you make a bad decision.

However, based on what you've said, the two situations are not the same, not even close.

I hope that now, you see and understand the differences.

I think you probably played the hand fine, given the history you described, where you appear to be 2-betting and c-betting very light.

Generally, 3-bets in LLSNL are {KK+}, and 5-bets are {AA}, but this spot is different given your previous aggression.

Your 2-bet was fine.

When he 3-bets, he is range is not {AA}. It is much wider. It is probably wider than {JJ+,AK}. For this reason, your 4-bet was probably okay. Although I might raise to $250 to make future decisions easier.

Now, after you 4-bet to $200 and he shoves, you are faced with calling $550 to win $955. You only need an equity of 37% to call. I don't have stove on this computer, but I'm guessing that against {QQ+,AK} you have the equity you need. And if you don't, you probably have it against {JJ+,AK}. (You might be missing equity you need by a small amount, for this reason I 4-bet larger. I also 4-bet larger for post flop reasons.)

Some of the chatter ITT is results orientated. Suppose the villain in this case had QQ. Would you have posted this? Suppose the villain in the other thread had 44. Would there have been a post?

There definitely are huge differences between your villain and his. But I'm not convinced hero in this case played horribly (given his image, rather than his villain's).

(I would have 4-bet larger.)

I would have liked to see the discussion that would have taken place if the results were not given...

I don't fault your math and you had a solid deduction.

I guess the thing that clinches it for me is that villain laid down AQ on an A89 board.

That is a HUGE piece of information for me. That tells me the man knows what he is doing and can make the big laydown when you hold his feet to the fire.

I think the OP did a good job of holding his feet to the fire, I like the aggression and the 4bet, but when villain shoves OTT of OP's bet, I think you just have to fold here given the stacks involved.

And you know I have no aversion to shoving

Lastly, I wouldn't say OP played horribly. Again, I like the 4bet in this spot. But I do think the final call was a mistake.

At first I thought it was 1/2, and I was like

Then I realised that effectives are 125BBs.

IMO 4bet/getting it in pre w AKo vs. a villain who raises a decent range, while not ideal, can't be all that big a mistake. I certainly wouldn't make a habit of it especially when deeper.

Also we're calling $460 into $1055. That prices us in if his range is QQ+; I think it might be slightly wider.

+1 to this. However, it also says he isn't playing light hands. There's a huge difference between punishing limpers with AQ and 3betting a raiser. The OP's range for him is way too wide. This is QQ+, AK. Hero has seen at best 15 hands so far, not nearly enough to have a ninja read.

One other consideration is that poker players don't like to get pushed around. He's made one big lay down, he may feel he needs to make a stand here. Therefore, he's more likely to stick with QQ than normal.

However, he's not 5betting AK or QQ here. Spewy call.

Don't feel bad, it was definitely my misapplication of a concept that didn't correctly apply to this situation. Somehow I got way too caught up in the moment. I think all the points that you've made about 3betting are quite valid and that I will probably need to take more time to reevaluate and consider all those factors in 3bet pots. I also think it was definitely stupid and that I was burning money calling his 5bet shove and having made up my mind that I was going to do that when I 4bet. If I stuck to giving him that wide 3 bet range I probably could have sized a 4bet better to cost me less if he's holding AA/KK but will consider folding lesser holdings.

I'm definitely feeling like this right now. However, it seems that most in this thread would say that aside from the spew call, the hand wasn't played horribly wrong. I'm curious to know what you you guys might say your 3 and 4 bet frequencies/tendencies are in LLSNL games and how you approach those pots. I'm just feeling like I need to give more credit to getting 3bet and especially anything higher than that at the moment but I don't want to make it a rule without carefully considering the exceptions.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.824% 18.14% 20.68% 6524615 7436014.00 { AcKd }
Hand 1: 61.176% 40.50% 20.68% 14561741 7436014.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

/thread

You have 460 left and the pot is ~1040. You're not getting the right price to call here and this range is generous. More likely I'd say his 5bet shoving range is KK+.

In general w/ AK of course it's villain dependent but your average 1/2 - 2/5 player's 3betting range consists of QQ+/AK and maybe JJ+/AQs/AK so folding AK to a 3bet isn't terrible.

My 3betting depends on villain and the situation and factors I highlighted above.

Once I read you as a LAG, i'm widening my 3bet range, if I have position on you my range will typically be: JTs-AK, 88-AA
If I don't have position on you then it will be: KQs, AQ, AK, 88-AA

If I read you as a TAG, the range tightens up to: AQ, AK, JJ-AA

If I read you as a nit, the range tightens to: AK, QQ-AA

I also mentally prepare for 4bets from the LAG. You 3bet a LAG a few times and they will play back at you, so i'm mentally prepared for that.

If a TAG 4bets me, I need KK+ to call. If i'm priced in (and we are deep enough) to set mine with QQ or AKs, I'll see a flop.

If a nit 4bets me, I need AA to call. If by a miracle he prices me in and we are deep enough, i'll try to luckbox him with AKs or setmine with my QQ/KK but that is rare, nits usually don't make that mistake nor seek the action of a call.

I played a hand against an asian kid and he 5bet me with garbage, I 6bet shipped with AA. It was for around 150BBs and all went in pre probably since I had a loose image (since I raise really wide on the button... lol)

But board was like KQ77x and he didn't flip his cards, so once I saw the K and Q I was puking but then he mucked at the end so I know he had crap.