I agree with this... 4bet/fold pre at these stack sizes sounds good. Much better than calling then checking when we hit our hand. I like $265.

A lot of people are suggesting Villian will stack off with weaker King hands here, but OP mentioned he's passive pre. They don't generally 3b hands like KQ, KJ, KT etc.

The check raise click comes off as really strong. It depends on my read and how much HH I have on a player but this is a strong line. Maybe a chop at best here.

I'm assuming this means you called and lost the hand to KK or AA. I don't see how checking flop would have helped you out there...

Because what is Villian really going to 3b pre with and check call this flop where we're ahead. If hero checks behind, we can potentially pick up value from TT-QQ on the turn. When hero calls we're often behind and when he raises we're almost certainly behind.

I can tell you absolutely that I've been called many many times against underpairs in situations like these. Unfortunately they often had the better hand... And I also know that there's been many times where I've checked back flop and then bet turn and they folded their JJ or QQ face up.... And there have been many times that I've checked flop with a hand like this and then they hit their set on the turn (ok that should only happen 5% of the time so isn't a huge concern but it's still free money we're giving villain when it does)...

I just think people here are way overvaluing what they get on the turn by playing weak/passive on the flop.

You don't have to bet 3/4 pot or even half pot, but I do absolutely think you should bet something. What's a dollar amount that *you* would hate to check/fold holding QQ (but still not feel great about calling). Maybe bet that with your entire range here (except specifically QQ).

I think 4bet/fold is like the worst line ever preflop. If you're going to fold then don't 4 bet. What are you really gaining from he 4 bet? If you're folding to a shove hen it was a bluff and you're way better just foldin for flatting the 3 bet.

When a passive pre flop player 3bets pre, I think we're ok making the nitty fold. I know that I should make that fold more often.

AP, Villain has told us 3 times he's got a big hand. Unfortunately, we've priced ourselves in now, so we have to call. Hopefully he's got JT and we're a hero.

The 4-bet/fold will allow H to get away from his hand for $700 (or whatever it was in OP). If we believe V only shoves AA or KK pre, easy fold.

My point is hat you can "get away" a lot cheaper by just flatting and playing cautiously and if you 4 bet fold you lose whatever equity you had. Not to mention the times he decides to just go with QQ and you fold. That's the worst result of all.

I'd like a better read before 4b/f pre. Does V understand how strong we are representing? I'd certainly consider it.

As played, I would fold to the shove. I really would be tempted to fold to the check-raise, too. That flop is pretty decent for your range, and villain still takes a line designed to get as much money in the pot as he can. I know it is only a minraise, but it sets up an easy turn shove, and there are only 2 cards that I would really like to see.

I also, with the reads given, am more than ok to play a little small ball and check back the flop.

If we think villain is only 3betting JJ+/AK, he's probably not shoving 200BBs with QQ (that's quite rare)... I'd expect a villain that has a tightish 3bet range to be folding JJ-QQ a decent amount of the time, maybe AK, and even occasionally KK (I definitely see this happen). Furthermore, by 4betting we tend to freeze action postflop, and can get a free turn card, maybe even river, when we whiff and are up against JJ-QQ cold calling OOP - so we have more opportunity to fully realize our equity against these hands. And we remove most KK-AA from his range (since he didn't 5bet - though KK will flat fairly often), so we don't need to be so worried postflop when a K or A peels.... In this case, if he flats and a K peels, there's usually only going to be a single combo - KK - that beats us - much more likely that he has AK, so we can feel better about getting it in when he bets.

So I did some math. I actually missed that we were this deep. 100bb 4bet/fold is really bad. 200bb deep and it depends on your range. If you want me to show my work I will but the cliffs are:

If you include JJ in his 3 bet range (I probably don't for a loose passive) then it's +EV. If you don't include it then it's -EV.

Your 5 card EV vs. with or without JJ are both ~40% but you're in position so you can probably figure about 50%. So, depending on the opponent I'd say it's either fold>flat>4b/f>4b/gii. I'd switch the first two depending on how tight I perceive his 3 bet range to be.

And remember 200bb deep you can make his life miserable postflop.

Villain has only been at table for half an hour, and we see him playing lots of hands and making bluffs + overvaluing stuff. Hero has a lag image and beat him in a hand. I don't see how we're giving villain such a tight range.

But I agree, if his range is like QQ+/AK and he often just flats our raise with AK, then we should fold.

Once we give him more AK and JJ and possibly some TT, I think we should 4bet/fold, because otherwise we're going to be folding on the flop a lot against AK, not realizing our equity against JJ, and somebody that 3bets a range like this is probably just going to be done with their TT-QQ hands when a K peels and they don't hit their set.

If we start adding in other hands like the occasional AQ, AJs, 66+, etc, then I start leaning more towards a flat because I feel like he's going to be a bit aggro post and not willing to give up so easily, but in that case I'm not calling to fold so easily when I make TPTK.

Basically, my decision to flat would imply that I'm going the distance with AK on this board. I'll flat if I believe I'll have the best hand and get some money in the pot when a K or A hits - either due to them playing back at me or simply not believing me (due to my lag image). But I'm not flatting intending on making a single bluff post-flop - I just don't see it being profitable at all with AK on just about any runouts. The single exception I can think of is possibly bluffing a 4flush on the turn, if we get to the turn and that happens.

I don't exactly see how we can make his life "miserable" postflop when 10% of our stacks went in pre. Are you planning on floating low boards and shipping with AK, then getting snapped off with QQ? How exactly do you plan on making his life miserable by flatting pre?

Loose passive preflop does not match your ranges.

In position with almost 200bb back... if you can't think of ways to put him in bad spots then...

I read... Loose preflop... Bluffs... Hero has lag image... Etc.

I've played a lot of laggy poker, and even the most tight passive OMCs start doing weird ass stuff against me.

But ultimately OP should know better than anyone what V's range is. I simply listed 3 possible ranges (including a tight range that you'd normally give to LP players), and my plan against each.

There really just isn't a good way to put him in spots if we flat and his range is like JJ+/AK and he cbets most boards, except he doesn't cbet when he has JJ-QQ and there is an ace or king on the flop.

You have to be planning on floating, and then bluffing the turn, or raising his cbet, and I don't see how that can possibly be profitable against 18 combos of JJ+ and only 9 combos of AK.

You can do all of things. You can also check an A or K flop and get st least one street later. I will say this is made more difficult by the read that he's kind of spewy post flop. In that case we're going to get more value when we hit. Honestly, my go to move in this spot is probably just to fold. When a loose passive suddenly 3 bets from the blinds I'm inclined to shut t down until I k ow he can do this without KK+.