Hero- $200 just sat down and has no reads other than most of the players at the table are older ABC players, fish for the most part

Villain- covers hero barely, older man 50's-60's

preflop-

4 limpers to Hero in CO A Q

hero raises to 15

Villain in BB calls, limper UTG calls, other 3 limpers fold

pot- 52

Flop- K J 9

both villain and utg check, hero bets 35

villain check raises to 85 all day

pot is now at 172 so 50 more to call getting about 3.5:1 and villain has 100 behind so with implied odds we are getting possibly better than 5:1 on a call

I put him on Kx or maybe even j 10 qj

we have a backdoor nfd, gutshot to the nuts and an overcard to the board

18 outs to improve our hand here (9 bdfd, 3 gs, 3 q, 3 a)

like my call here?

Fold to raise. You have only 4 known safe cards on the turn (tens).

I don't like it, and based on your description of the raiser...I think only the gutshot will put you ahead. You just aren't getting the right price.

If you call you are essentially calling to see one more card, but you're chances of hitting the best hand on the turn vs top pair are 9% to 16% (depending on opponents kicker). Your implied odds aren't that great either. If you hit the miracle 10 on the turn, you only get paid off vs lower straights and possibly sets. BTW, most players don't raise here without at least 2pair or better so your odds against villains range are even worse.

BTW, this is a pretty wet flop. I would just check behind on flop and hope to hit a card that improves our hand on the turn. If both villains check the turn you can generally bet out and take it down at that point.

don't cbet this flop, it smashes your villains' ranges

You were given the chance to take a free card on the flop. When people hand you gifts at the poker table, you should take them.

on seeing one more card i figured If i miss completely yes i cant call his turn shove which is pretty miuch guaranteed. however if I hit my 10, diamond, q or ace i will be priced in to see the river as it will be 100 more to win 375 so 3.75 to 1

So basically I figured im getting the right price to hit a diamond, 10,q, ace on the turn and if I do i have to go with the hand to the river


also after the villain check raised he intently stared me down as I was contemplating a call
I interpreted this as definitely not a set or 2 pair, maybe a see where Im at raise with Kx or a pair+ str8 draw

From an equity standpoint it's not an awful spot (it's fairly marginal), but by taking this line you are showing the propensity to take lines that you should avoid (lines that bad players often take). You should try to avoid the following as much as possible:

1) C-betting on wet flop with only a gutshot against 2+ players.
2) Calling check-raise of tight fish
3) Calling raise on flop which will commit you to other marginal spots/calls on future streets.

Regarding #3, if you hit your ace or queen you will commit yourself to call another 50bbs when you may only be drawing to a Ten. If a diamond pairs the board on the turn you could commit yourself to calling drawing dead (or drawing to 1 straight flush out).

From a mindset perspective, you should generally be looking for spots where you have the best hand and are forcing fish to call you in spots where they are heavy underdogs. These 1/2 players are really bad. There is no reason to put yourself in these marginal spots.

Dude, you are using your advanced knowlede of poker to justify making a super donk play.

I see this all the time with players that learn some theory and advance poker but don't quite yet know how to properly integrate it into their games.

Lets look at the flop.

THIS IS A HORRIBLE FLOP TO CBET!!!!!! Dear god in heaven, that flop is dead in the middle of your villains calling range. I mean, what do you think they are calling your raise with, 54s, 87o, 22-88????

This flop would have given the MAJORITY of your villains' calling ranges pair + straight combos, 2 pair, or straights... So why on god's green earth are we c-betting here when they aren't folding the vast majority of their range.

Seriously, think it through, J9, JT, QT, Q9, KQ, KQ, KT, KJ, T8, T9, QJ, AJ, AT, etc are all hands that are never folding to your c-bet.

So, take the free card, hope to turn a diamond or a T and then proceed, otherwise, be fine with folding turn.

Winning poker isn't just about betting and taking down pots, its about recognizing WHEN to bet and WHEN to draw.

You need to seriously look and study this board until you figure out and understand why what I said above is true.

Lastly, calling the raise and hoping to commit yourself is donk-tarded. Why do you want to put more money in the pot when your equity sucks. Purposefully trying to pot commit yourself or inflate a pot so that you "now" have proper odds to call is -EV because at the time of you making those decisions, you are NOT committed nor have proper odds.

So, check back flop, pot control, keep your implied odds high so you can profitable call most turn bets if you catch something...

As play, snap fold flop AINEC.

Preflop is fine.

Once you get called by BB and UTG pre, I look for a freebie on this flop when they both check to me. This board hits a lot of l/c hands hard (2 pair/pair + straight draw), and BB was first to call so who knows what the frack he has.

We have an over, a gutter, and a backdoor nut flush draw. A free card can do wonders for this hand.

Villains love to put someone on AK, and his repop there hints that he can beat AK. The odds are not correct. Fold.

+1,000,000,000

Good posts above. Reread them then google reverse implied odds.

yeah I guess I have to agree with this. However, as I was getting chips and preparing the c-bet UTG was already picking up his cards and definitely was disinterested- probably a low pp or low to middle suited conector

also Villain appeared disinterested and was picking up his cards

I figured they both easily could have low pp's low to middle sc's or Ax suiteds and i could cbet ad even if they call I can spike a diamond, 10, q or A on the turn to take th elead or give myself a to of outs


END RESULT

after figuring out my odds on the flop and what it would be then on the turn I eventually call and i hit the absolute gin card OTT

the 10

lol i have the nuts and a royal re-draw and of course villain goes all in after 2 seconds and I snap call

he has AKo

I win the pot

lol

he wasnt even mad as he was already stuck pretty big and probably always is as he proceeded to lose a few mor ebuyins before leaving.

I guess it was a poor call but i felt an ace or 10 (obviously) would give me the lead and a diamond or queen would commit myself to the river

i got lucky and maybe it was a poor play, but the odds were not that far against me if he had say K8s

sometimes i'd rather be lucky than good

Please explain how on Earth you think an Ace gives you the lead on this board?

Also explain how being committed with the Queen on the turn (if a queen hit) is at all profitable?

I don't know about you, but i'm not a big fan of having mid pair on a 4 to a straight board like K Q J 9r

Sorry if i'm coming off as a prick, but I sense from your post that you are a purely Level I player. Yes, you know some theory and the cool lingo and hell you might even know a little bit of poker math, however you use all that knowledge to reinforce Level I donkaliscious play.

No where in your "logic" do you even mention villain ranges or how a Queen or an Ace impacts those ranges.

All I get from you is a thought process that is basically, "Well, I have A Q, and I'd like to hit an A, Q, or T, so I will call " and that is the very definition of donkaliscious Level I

Serious question, did you even once stop to think what your villains likely have??? And if so, what did you think they had????

^^^^

in all honesty i was really only looking for a 10 or a diamond

I felt villain has a blank K or a J and a straight draw

perhaps my call would give me a free river as well

I read him correcty for not having 2 pair or better

Not really. AK is effectively two pair against your hand.

LoL @ you read him correctly.

With all due respect but everything that you just mentioned to justify your call was wrong? An ace wouldn't improve your hand, and a queen certainly wouldn't either. So all you were hoping for was Hitting the T or runner runner flush.
Which Ofc means you put your money in being a massive dog and got lucky, now I won't disagree that I would like lady luck to be on my side more often than not. But relying on her is -EV like always.

Highly over estimated your outs to make a donk play. It just happened to work in your favor.

It was horrible play, and thinking "he might have K8s" is nothing more than wishful thinking in an attempt to justify it. You will be in for a rude awakening if you keep that up.

i have to agree with this, but 3.75:1 OTT plus implked odds i thought there was some justification in caling

My biggest concern here is that after everything that was said in this thread, he still thinks he was correct here.

When someone comes on 2+2 I feel an obligation to help make them better since this site literally saved my life.

I came on here a few years ago and posted some of the most embarressing donk-laced dribble and 2+2 was correct in ripping me a new one and letting me know that I was a donk.

I'm sorry if i'm coming off as a prick OP, but its vital that you understand that your rationale in playing this hand is the stuff of donks and droolers. Your inability to put your villains on a range (not just a specific hand but a RANGE of hands) coupled with your inability to understand how your A or Q impacts their range coupled with your "logic" of hoping to get committed come a turn A or Q is why I love playing LLSNL with players like you.

This hand and the rationale behind this hand is pure donkalisciousness at its finest.

You need to accept that you are dead wrong here, not by a little bit, but by a LOT and then you need to start attacking all the things you hold dear until you can understand "why" and "how" you are so wrong here...

good luck

He has $100 behind. Not much in the way of implieds.

Look, a bare ace *probably* isn't good when you c/r on that board. You have 4 clean outs, meaning you are about 12-1 to hit your hand on the turn. Your best gin card also puts a 1 card straight out there, meaning the other $100 may not automatically follow.

At 3.5-1, this is a bad call. It isn't any better at 5.5-1. Even is the aces are clean (which they rarely will be), the odds do not justify the play.

k

I understand and I agree I was wrong

I do not make these types of plays/calls ever usually. I stick to the 2+2 advice on llsnl:

bet for value, bet/fold, only make moves if you have a dead read on the situation (which i obviously did not)