$2/$5

Ive noticed that the more I play, the less afraid I am of a 3 flush on the board, mainly when I am the caller but even sometimes when I am the bettor. I think my win rate has really increased since I stopped being so afraid of flushes.

I have 6s5s in the BB. Straddled pot with no raise with 5 to the flop

Flop ($50) Ah3s4h. I check, checked to MP who bets $40. I am the only caller.

Villain is about 70 and seems to be loose passive. Hes winning but only because hes hit a few hands incl a set vs my top 2 pair. He played it very passively saving me a lot of money. Hes called several preflop raises with big aces and wont fold to a C-Bet when he has just overcards. Of course that read doesnt mean much in this hand.

Turn ($130) 2h. I check. He bets $75. I call.

River ($280) Td. I open shove all in. Its $195 to him. Thoughts?

I'll will add my thoughts for the turn and river action a little later.

Well - I don't know how confident I am... but I agree with the shove. Essentially because there's no way you are possibly folding this hand - so you might as well try for max value from Ax (since he'd presumably often check back).

I wouldnt call that large a bet on the flop with your stack size with 6 high on a 2flush ace board after someone bets into 5 people.

Shouldn't have gotten there but once you do why not just shove turn of your plan was to shove river anyway? Or didn't you have a plan? I'm guessing you didn't have a plan.

Can't call flop as pretty as it is. I'd probably lead turn AP to get value from a lot of hands that will check behind but have equity in the form of one heart. I guess river shove is ok as preferable to a c/c line, but it seems really thin. Unless he is terrible I don't think he is calling you here with much worse. Maybe A4 or a set.

Actually my plan was to shove any non heart river for 2 reasons.

1) A heart river sucks as odds are much higher he will have a flush
2) A river shove is going to look like Im bluffing when I missed my 4 flush.

I considered a check raise all in on the turn but decided against it.

Don't know why we're not betting turn. I'd rather get value from an ace with a naked heart than let the river brick off.

From the sounds of the villain's description he's betting the flop with an ace rather than a flush draw. Given his relative position, he's got more aces in his range than flush draws.

You dont think if I bet the turn, there's a pretty good chance he folds an ace with no heart?

My thinking was it will be much tougher for him to fold the river when the pot is much bigger, than it will be on the turn. Im folding an ace most of the time there if someone leads into me. I wont have a big heart since I didnt raise preflop.

If your goal is to make him feel pot committed by the river by bloating the pot, you need to get $ in before the river. The only way to guarantee it is to lead turn. He may fold turn, and if he doesn't have a heart in his hand he's not going to call a sizable bet on the river anyway. If he's got big hand like a set or two pair he may raise here thinking you're betting on the come.

I don't think you are getting any value from hands that are drawing dead. They will most likely fold on the turn if you bet or check if you check. So the hands you are targeting for value are two pair, sets, and naked Kh (which would be strange to see). All of these hands will pay more on the turn than the river. Your line assumes he will put you on a bluff and call, but I think that's usual without reads.

Generally, I agree with this statement in heads-up pots. Flushes are a big concern in multiway pots.

As far as the action goes, I think you should crai the turn. You want to get value from single heart draws as well as worse straights. I think shoving the river is fine because we're not overly concerned about the flush and we can get max value from 5x hands.

#1 is actually an argument for raising turn.
#2 has merit except that it's entirely focused on getting him to bluff catch. This is a passive old man who has bombed two streets already. The only thing that could possibly slow him down are hearts if he doesn't have them and slow you down regardless and a 4 straight. Let's say paired boards slow you down too. If he had sets and Ax with hearts he's probably calling the shove.

As played you gave him a reason to fold his combo draw because after river it wasn't a combo anymore. It was just a pair and missed draw.

this is a pretty good reason to c/r the turn.

Yeah, I check raise the turn a lot in this spot. I just decided not to this time. Ive actually caught a lot of flack here for check raising in this spot which Ive always found strange.

I haven't seen those threads so I can't be sure. I'm guessing maybe there's some fundamental differences that make them not like his spot. Possible different responders have different opinions too, and we all know the quality of advice varies wildly.

#2) I dont think its entirely focused on him trying to catch a bluff. I just think its harder for him to fold one pair when the pot is more than twice as big.

You need to completely rewire your thinking - this is not about the 3 flush ott, it's about the 2 flush otf and what that means for your hand v range on most runouts along with the implications it has for flop play.

Here, your OESD is facing a near PSB, you're shallow, and 2/8 of your outs are either dirty or dash your IO (though you're shallow enough here to get called by a lot of hands that have equity against you). Not ideal, but the crux here is that becasue of the presence of 2 flush (not a 3 flush turn), your best option is a 0ev one given you're significantly more often going to have to ck-f turn (than on rainbow flops) which further decimates whatever equity you were hoping to realize and ck-r is near zero FE which pulls that line into -ev territory as well.

Check and Fold flop... AP, the best case scenario has played out and you have to ck-r turn

What's the plan on a H Riv? Ck-f? Ck-c? Shove? When it goes ck ck and he has A2-A5, sets, AK no heart, does that make you want to rethink Ck-shove turn?

What about AP on non heart riv, when you shove and he lol open folds every hand above along with AKxh, and lol calls every flush in his range? Would that make you want to rethink ck-shove turn?

I can assure you those situations/villains were different. I don't think anyone will give you flack for check raising in this spot.

you shouldn't just decide not to as if you were flipping a coin. You should make the best play at all times given all the information at hand, most importantly how sticky and stationey the guy is.

I dont disagree that check/folding the flop is probably better.

It's exactly the same
Size whether you crai or donk shove river. Zero change in pot size.

If hes a big enough calling station to call a turn check raise all in with one pair (who knows is he needs a big heart to call or not), why do you think he will fold one pair on the river when the pot is more than twice as big and I make what looks like "I cant win without betting" shove on the river?

So it is a bluff catch.

The more I think about this, the more I like my more standard line of check raising the turn all in.

He did call my river shove with AJ though. He had the Jh and obviously wouldve called the turn all in also. Against a player like that, the question would be is there any merit to waiting for a non heart river before getting all in since hes calling with or without a 4th heart....or will he bluff the river (when he doesnt have a heart) and make me fold the winner enough times when a 4th heart falls that waiting for a non heart river is wrong?

I think the action killer of many rivers and the chances of getting outdrawn makes it a clear turn shove. Glad you are receptive enough to listen responses and weigh them despite your own thoughts. That'll serve you well. Too many posters can't take advice.