So I started to really get into explicit "base" ranges that I adjust accordingly to how the game is playing. Well, there's obviously a lot of differences between online and live - we need balance online and people understand position.

My "base" UTG opening range from UTG is about 77+, suited broadways, 98s, T9s, J9s, Q9s, and A5s. UTG +1 is identical to UTG and UTG +2 only changes by adding in 87s, all all suited aces, AJo and KQo.

With that being said, over my last 100 hours of play (I know, 3000 hands isn't that much), I've noticed opening suited connectors, suited aces, J9s and Q9s from EP is absolutely burning money. Granted, I play in almost exclusively loose passive games, but I even noticed in the rare tight passive games I play, opening these hands from EP has lead to horrible results. I haven't been able to draw conclusions, but to be honest, even opening most suited broadways leads to bad results.

Here is what I've become more aware of, which isn't relevant in the online games where these hands are vital to be in the range:

1. Position is not relevant. My opens from EP usually end up always being 3 or 4 ways. (Note: My usual sizing from EP is $15, this is not a sizing issue)

2. With being in multiway pots a very strong majority of the time I lose my fold equity from c bets that I'd otherwise have in HU pots

3. 1/2 live players are the worst you'll find...If you fold for literally the first hour of play and then open $15 UTG, you'll still get action almost every time


Going off of these points, I'm wondering - where do we draw the line? I was thinking about testing out only opening 88+, suited broadways and AQo+. Should we take it a step further and even take out half of the suited broadways and 88-99?

What does your EP opening range look like, in your average game? When do you start opening suited aces and the Q9s/J9s and T9s/98s??

Thank you so much in advance for reading and contributing to this discussion.

At a table were you're getting 3+ callers every time, 77 isn't any different than 22. You're set mining. But if you're getting 3+ callers, you're also getting great IO to set mine, so I'd raise every PP from early position.

About your point 3: The reason you are getting action from 1/2 players despite your VPIP being amazingly low, is that their experience at 1/2 tells them that when a player suddenly raises after folding for an hour straight, their range is AA-QQ, and are absolutely incapable of folding an overpair ever. If they flop a hand that beats one pair, they will get paid. Also, a lot of 1/2 players don't understand pot odds, so if they flop a draw with a lot of equity, there's a good chance they will get the correct price to draw, and again, if the draw hits the super-nit will never fold an overpair.

As you have noticed, for live play that is maniac loose.

If the table is loose enough that $15 is going multiway to the flop every time then I'm just playing AK/AQ/99+ from UTG. If stacks are deep then throw in middle/low pairs and middle suited connectors occasionally and look for favorable flops. That is super tight but if every flop is going multiway that is fine. Even if opponents are paying attention that won't do them much good if SPR is going to be small every time.

More typically something like 88+, ATs+, KQs, AQo+. With the addition that if people are habitually flat calling with AK/AQ preflop then I chuck AJs/ATs preflop also. Mix in QJs-87s and other pairs occasionally depending on stack sizes.

I'd start with QuadJ's "tight" range in UTG. In a MW pot, you're playing too many RIO/Trouble hands in EP which you have to give up on or fall into the win small/lose big category.

Mat the Gambler: I don't like the idea of opening every pocket pair because while there's usually a few deep players, the majority are usually $150ish and we're not getting good enough odds.

QuadJ/venice10: AK/AQ/99+*sounds good, but is that slightly too narrow? You're not even opening KQs in games like my usual?

Not raising KQs UTG if no matter what I raise, it is going 3-4 way on the flop. If I can take the blinds or get HU on the flop, it is a whole different game.

When you're playing 1/2 and even some 2/5 games, its much more about how you play post flop than what you are raising.

If you cant profitably raise suited broadways from EP in a 1/2 game, something is wrong with your post flop game. You should be able to raise plenty of those other hands listed in the OP profitably also if you play well post flop.

How can we profitably play JTs OOP 4 ways??

Depends what the flop is.

If a 15 dollar open is going 4-way every time then we're being called by a lot of hands that are dominated by KQs -- we'd have to guesstimate that the table is on average playing around 40% VPIP -- so, include Q9o+,K9o+ in the table ranges. I'd gladly play KQs in a 4-way pot against dominated ranges.

The point is that this is a long run problem. I would say average pot when opening UTG is 3.5 ways and I rounded up....How in the long run are we winning with a hand like JTs 3.5 ways OOP?

It depends on stack sizes. If the average stack is 75bbs, I'd probably dump JTs.

In my game average stacks can range from 150bb-250bb and I'm opening: 22+, AJo+, KQo, suited broadways, J9s, 76s-T9s. If there are squeeze-happy players at the table I ditch AJo, KQo, 22-66, J9s.

I've also stopped opening suited aces in EP as they are simply too often dominated when they flop an A by other players who call with sh*t like ATo.

I open AQ+, 99+, AJs, KQs UTG. If the table is passive I open limp 66-88 and if it’s super passive suited aces and suited broadways.

You have to learn how to correctly play the entire range of flops....from TP to draws, to pair and gutshots to overcards....all of that. Flops like 774 where you can take it down with a bet a lot of the time even 3-4 ways. You have to know when to barrel the turn when called. All of those things that make up good post flop play. There's no way to answer your broad question of "how are we winning 3-4 with JTs OOP?"

Of course its easier and more profitable in position, but those hands can still be played profitably OOP and as long as it can be played profitably, it should be played.

Remind me to read this thread to comfort myself next time I get called a nit. At least I've never folded AJs UTG in my life.

Just a question Mike: i see this statement being thrown around in alot of threads in this forum, aka statements like "you can do x and y IF you play well postflop".

Can you eleborate on this, and be a little more concrete? Like what does it mean exactly to "play well postflop"? Whats your definition?

Is it to not go broke with top pair weakish kicker multiway? Is it to double barrell enough on the turn to generate folds against fit/folds opponents? Is it a willingness to fastplay draws in certain spots aka aggressive lines? I would take an educated guess and say its a mix of lots of things, but you see where i am heading at. The "play well postflop" thing is a pretty vague and non concrete term that we need to give more meaning to.

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Wrt post flop play, I'd recommend working on that aspect of the game while ip. Playing oop with some of the hands mentioned in this thread should be avoided imho.

In terms of openings from EP, I'd consider 77+/QJs+/ATs+. These of course are subject to particular game conditions, specifically the amount of 3betting as well as the number of callers expected.