Can you guys tell me why you're not shoving? A min 4bet is a lot stronger than a 4bet shove. If V is 5bet shoving over our min 4bet when he knows he's beat is he ever folding to our 4bet ai?

I've 4bet shoved for $320+ before over a min 3bet to $35 because the guy had no 3bet range, it was clearly KK+.

The 4bet isn't giving V the right odds to mine, I get that, if he flats and hits the Q we didn't let him get there for the right price. But if he's shown he isn't folding why aren't we getting ai?

Never flat with another V In the hand.

Because when we shove allin we take away the possibility for our Villains to spazz out with all kinds of hands we beat and shove over us. When we min 4 bet i believe we creates just a little doubt in Villains mind that we can be making a move, or that his hand (whatever he holds) is good. I have seen players spazz out with all sorts of holdings in spots like this, its incredible how players can level themselves sometimes.

This concept for me especially apply when we are a little deeper than this spesific hand though, like 200BB. I mean, it can be overwhelming to a lots of players to get in a corner with an big allin bet in a cash game- not to forget from a tight rockish player like me. Its all about giving him rope to come back over the top, and dont push him into a corner by moving directly allin.

In this particular hand i think its a real possibility that our V folds his QQ after tanking if i shove allin preflop. He can conclude that he either is flipping against AK, or is miles behind KK or AA- and he dont want that situation for his whole stack. Small 4 bet can get him to station for a flop, or to spazz out pre with anything levelling himself as i said earlier.

^ If you knew the answer why'd you post? I was really asking Avaritia.

But deeper I think you make some good points, When everyone's 100BB deep the discussion isn't as complex. 500BB deep eff, yeah we would need to talk about 4 betting at all, sizing, wanting to go HU or 3way to the flop...

I wanted to give you my thoughts on your question. Its my thread also,and everyone is able to answer i believe? And the reason that i posted was because i wanted to hear other players opionion, wich is always meaningfull.

If you wanted only Avarita to answer, i suggest you quote him next time.

Pretty sure we're trying to get stacks in here pf. 4 bet to 85. Against a tight player we would hate to somehow have him check a wet single suit flop or a flop w/ an ace or king on it and fold his QQ/whatever to a bet on flop

It does if villain can fold. UTG+1 is looking at $24 now to win something over $200. Odds are thin but he has position, a better then usual chance of stacking somebody and a chance of stacking both of opponents if he is facing two big pairs. This isn't a great situation for him but would be +EV for set mining.

You could make a case for flatting and letting UTG+1 stick around if he will call with AX and other hands that are crushed here and which might lose money post flop. UTG+1 is described as solid though, he is only calling to bust big pairs and will only put money in post flop with hands that beat single pairs or huge draws.

To me it relates to how villains tend to view the situation. A good opponent will view any situation where I'm putting 1/3 or more of my stack in preflop as very strong or a big bluff. Bad ones think in terms of absolute money and don't plan out the hand. To them $200 looks like a lot more then $80 to them, they don't realize it's really about the same because both hero and villain are pot committed on the flop with anything except total air bluffs.

I totally agree, and the more i think about this hand versus this particular opponent,the less doubt i have about have i played this hand.

Like you say, it would be a disaster if we flat call his 3 bet preflop and K or A hits for example, and he shuts down. Likewise if he would have held AK instead of QQ, maybe he would shut down if he missed the flop.

Get more money in preflop with a 4 bet, and get him to commit his stack with his pressumed very big hand has to be the reciepe here.

The chances we get an A on the flop is 12%.

If we get a K on the flop, it hits the majority of his range, and he's going to stack off most of the time.

The vast majority of the time, we're going to get a good flop and he's not getting away from his [JJ-QQ,AK]. And the rest of his range (which is tiny, btw) probably doesn't call a 4bet anyway.

There is alot of bad/MUBs thought process in here.

I will say this: The two biggest leaks I see in LLSNL are 1) VPIP'ing OOP too much and 2) not extracting the most value out of great value spots

Wanting to shove here or 4! huge to protect your hand or iso or whatever is just a really, really bad thought process. Your only concern is what line makes the most money over time.

Lapi gets it.

It is very easy to make a decision tree in Excel with ranges for villains and like 3 generic flop types and % of their outcomes.

I don't flat AA multiway often, but when I do it's with a low SPR and ip of the pfr.