1/3 Orleans

Game is mostly passive nits, who like to open limp.
Hero is most aggressive and youngest at table.

Earlier in session V limp 3 bet Hero with no history

This guy has not raised or barely played a hand since then.

Effective stacks 400 ish

H opens 12 from MP with AdAc

V in SB 3 bets to 26.
Instantly I think he must have KK, AA 90% of the time here. Maybe QQ.

H just calls to let him barrel and trap him although I don't know if a 4 bet is better.

As played we just call. He probably thinks we have a wider range when we just call like this.

Flop QJ8cc

V bets 20, H calls

Turn 2s
V bets 40, we raise to 100

V now insta ships 240 ish more.

Questions:

1) Why or why not is a 4 bet better in this hand? I know 4 betting AA can never be wrong especially against a nit, but I also thought just calling could make him never think we have AA

2) Why or why not should we raise the flop or turn?

3) As played, should we call off the last 240 more?

Against a nit as described we are up against a set most of the time.
KK is possible but the description is passive so I am leaning towards a set
I think I am folding here


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if you 4 bet you get KK to call everytime. I would have 4 bet on it in your situation with AA but I am a lot less creative than most of the guys on here i realize

I see what you mean. QQ and JJ are very likely holdings for one of those guys. The flop is unfavorable in that regard

How sure are we here that villan is only 3 betting qq+ ak.... If that's the way then we need to 4bet with view to gii pre flop against these hands... Nit villans sit and wait for the big pp's they don't sit and wait for hours to fold them when they find them....
If this player does have some game and can be 3 betting light, then calling and letting him barrel is good.... I hate this board, the flop is awful for us, so just calling is fine, with a view to calling most every turn and evaluate river.
Turn raise is bad, we are never getting called by worse if we raise there and our bet is no where near big enough, and will give immediate odds to any draws villan turns up with,if your raising here just shove it all in the middle....
If I'm going to raise I prefer raising the flop.
I much prefer 4 betting pre

1. Look at your read. It is nearly criminal NOT to 4 bet here. You have literally taken the worst line possible line vs the described V (and table for that matter). Somehow we have managed to get almost the worst possible SPR for our most likely hand postflop, an overpair. I would rather have an SPR of 20-1 if we can't get it in the 3-4 range.

As played, why are we raising ever during this hand? Again, against this V we are smoked if he even calls a raise, let's just call down, if we are good, we are good. Since we didn't raise when we knew we were good, why would we want to raise when it is LESS likely we are good?

Fold now, if he is willing to push less than the nuts, take notes and change your read on this guy.

Nit shoves over your raise and you want to call?

Good luck with that.

4 bet that stupid little 3 bet pre. I call the 240 off. Hopefully he has KK. If he hit a set oh well nh.

We absolutely need to be 4betting AA against this V, as he's never folding KK/QQ to a modest 4b, and we set up a nice low SPR where we can pretty much always stack off postflop. We also get more value in the case where an A flops (or a K flops if he has QQ).

Save flatting 3bets IP with aces for aggro Villains who will barrel with all or most of their 3b range but are usually folding to a 4b.

Agreed with above. He has a huge hand to 3 bet, so he is not folding to your 4 bet...especially if you are the most active. He might even shove on top of your 4 bet. Im never flatting him because we know he has a big hand.

Grunch:

There's several merits to just calling in this spot, but you're not super deep so 4 betting shouldn't scare him as much as if you had a lot more behind. If his range is KK+ only it's a no brainer 4 bet because he's just not going to fold. If you think he folds QQ/KK to a 4 bet then ya just flat in position with an spr that easily gets stacks in.

The downside to just calling is the board you just got although it makes QQ less likely. It also makes it more difficult to get him to stick it in the middle too. If you thought he was capable of bluffing then trapping makes more sense. Against this guy, I'm just ripping it in as fast as possible.

The nittier the player, the more likely I am to 4! in this spot PF because their range is so tight that we have a good chance to GII PF. In this specific spot, I'm for sure putting in the 4!.

As played, I'm folding here. We're ahead of AKcc/KK, and crushed against QQ/JJ. If he's as nitty as your read indicates, I can't see him 3! Jamming KK OTT when QQ/JJ can definitely be in your range. I think we could have somewhat avoided this spot if we would have put in a 4! PF.

A nit 3! and you flat?!? That nit has waited all day and 3 cups of coffee for that KK/QQ hand and he's not gonna let some young whippersnapper push him around. 4! that **** to 80 and watch him literally yell at you to get off his lawn because he has dementia

His 3b is too small to just call. 4b that shizzle

OP immediately after flatting the 3!

This. He'll have KK more than you think here because what else is he going to do? He's not there to play poker, he's there to wait for AA or KK, get it allin and complain if he doesn't win.

There are exactly zero merits to just calling in that spot. 0. nada. zilch. zippo. nil.

You definitely missed a clear 4! gii spot pre.
AP you should just call each street on a board like that. I don't see any merit to raising in that spot. But you have to call it down now because your hand is under-repped and you do beat some of the hands he'd bet for value.

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Clear 4 bet pre, now you're playing a math game, he has 3 combos of QQ, 6 combos of KK and one combo of AA for a chop, making the turn a clear call. Remember that because they are nits pre, doesn't mean they know relative hand strength post. I've seen tons of nits that play super tight pre and then shovel in all over pairs post, ignoring action and board texture. When you sit around folding for 6 hours in a row, KK, looks pretty good on any non-ace high board.

This is simply not true. That doesn't mean it's the best line in this specific situation but I hope you can come up with some reasons why flitting a 3 bet with aces can be good.

Villain 3bet from 12 to 26 with effective stacks of 400. All reasonable 4bet sizes are massive +ev relative to flatting in this spot. It is not close. Just because scenarios exist where flatting a 3bet with AA may be best or arguable, has nothing to do with this spot.

Calling pf versus a huge nit is fine but the chr ott is not. Hideous play.

Then there's not a discussion to be had. Open your mind and just consider what benefits you Rt from calling. They exist.

The younger Hero is, the more he needs to 4 bet preflop.

Hate the line, but I will rethink it. Thanks.