OK so playing 1/3 live and were in the SB with A6
4 players limp and i complete in the SB and BB checks.

Flop AQ6
pot 18$-6$ rake=12$

I lead for 12 and UTG calls. Hes and older black guy who seems to be limping alot and playing pots. Probably been playing with him for about 30 min.Hes got about 340 behind and i cover.

turn 9
pot 36$
i lead for 40 and he calls

river 3
i bet 90 and hes shoves for about 190 more.
CALL OR FOLD??

SPDEZ

Pretty sure, you have to call here. You can eliminate AQ and 66, assuming UTG is not a total fish, UTG should have raised pre flop. The only hands I would worry about is the possibility of A9 or Q9 . But I think you have to call here.

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Knowing more about V would help but I’m ok with folding here. This smells like QQ, AQ, or A9... possibly A6. Limper who all of a sudden shoves = close to the nuts


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I'm betting more like $30-35 on the turn. As played, I'm calling. I think you'll see all sorts of smaller two pair hands pretty regularly.

I dump this hand preflop. It's beyond useless in the worst position, imo. The cheap price you're getting now won't make up for the money you lose with it here OOP.

Lol, they take the max rake as soon as the flop comes? My guess is you should be playing super tight in a raped game like this.

I also lead flop.

I bet smaller on the turn. In general, if someone is willing to call down 3 PSB+ bets, you'd better hope they are completely ******ed, otherwise it's unlikely top + bottom pair is going to be good on this board, especially as non drawy as it is (we're basically ahead of Q9).

Again, I'd bet smaller on the river and I'd fold to the raise. He just saw someone bomb 3 postflop streets, so unless he's completely noobish, two pairs only call here and never raise.

ETA: Also just noticed he's UTG. This makes it more likely that we run into monsters like AA/QQ (which typically would raise in position but will often limp in EP), and we still see our fair share of AQ too.

Govervaluedourhandoneverystreet,imoG

You are still, to this day, the only person I have ever seen advocate playing AA-QQ as a limp strategy. Those hands are heavily discounted by limp/calling in utg.

That said, fold pre if you get yourself in a situation like this, and don't know what to do. As played, make the call and just assume you are going to be taken most of the time.

There was no raise preflop.

What I'm saying is that *if* a player is capable of limping AA/QQ, then it is *far* more likely they do it in EP rather than in LP (where overlimping is quite rare because now there is just so much less of a chance of being able to spring a limp/reraise unless there is a known maniac behind you).

So in this case, due to opponents position, AA/QQ are far more easily in his range say than if he was in the CO. And of course this hand would most likely always flat an EP donk bet so as not to blow out the people behind him on this relatively ETA: drawless board, and the board didn't get any scarier on the turn either (so again flatting would be common).

FWIW, limping big hands in EP is one of the most common strategies you'll see, from both fish and non-fish alike. Regardless of what you think of the play, our experiences would have to differ greatly to suggest this isn't a common play.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I dont like limping in with AA/QQ.You get no information on strength of opponent. 2ndly big pairs generally dont play well in multi-way pots.

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This isn't the place for the limp/reraise argument.

The only thing that matters is whether this happens a lot at these games and whether we have to include these hands in the range that we're up against here. It does, and we do, imo.

GcluelessrangingnoobG

Even if I humored you and said AA/QQ was in an utg's limping range, H raising would likely draw raises from other players. So no, I think we can remove those hands completely from V's range, unless GobbledyGeek happens to be the V in my story. I am also discounting AA heavily as we block that one. AQ/A9 and smaller sets are what I think V could have readless (I don't assume the guy is a fish unless H states he is a fish, regardless how I view limping utg). He could just be a sticky player that sees no flush/straight and thinks Ax is good here.

"Humour" me in stating that big hands are often limped UTG at these stakes? Again, our experiences are *completely* different if you think you have to humour me to consider this part of UTG's limping range. I would actually go so far as to argue that limping huge hands UTG is done more often than open raising them; again, I'm not making a judgement on that play, I'm just stating what I consider a fact.

I'm not sure what you mean by "H raising would likely draw raises from other players"? It was limped preflop (there is no opportunity for UTG to reraise) and the flop is fairly bone dry (i.e. almost anyone who flops AA/QQ here will simply flat an EP donk so as not to blow out anyone behind them). I might be missing your point on that. AA/QQ are *clearly* in Villain's range so discount them at your own risk.

But almost all of this argument is moot. The only thing that matters is this guy called down 3 postflop barrels to then raise the river. MUBSyness is one of the main qualities of players at this level, so unless this guy is a complete noob overvaluing his hand, even hands as strong as A3 who binked two pair on the river are almost always just flatting for fear of running into 66. Raising here (for stacks no less) is nuttish almost always, and we are nowhere near nuttish, so pretty easy fold.

GimoG

I partially misread and though Hero raised pre, not just completed. But UTG, drew a top hand on a table that clearly likes to limp alot. I don't know many regs that take a look at AA, and think "hmm, lets play this 4+ ways. But no, when people limp with huge hands, it's mostly done in lp because players who do that correctly don't want to evaluate how their hand is faring with 5 fricken other people in the hand. In particular to QQ, people raise that much more often because they don't want to lose to chaffe like K2 that might limp in from the blinds or LP.

Two pair is also incredibly strong on this hand where AQ is only going to get beat by sets here, two of which you are blocking.

And mubsyness is no where near as prevalent as considering hands like weak two pairs and TPGK from thinking they deserve this pot. At the very least, depending on the table can be interchangeable. I see players all the time that won't ever fold two pair regardless of bet size on a board like this, even if it's **** like 9x6x. Hell, we have all read and seen stories where AK is never folding here cause lols.

If you think people overlimp big hands in LP more often than open limp in EP (especially UTG), then we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

And calling down with two pair / top pair (which he admittedly could easily be doing) is not remotely close to shoving over the river 3rd barrel (which is mostly nuttish, read withstanding).

Gdon'tthinkwe'regoingtoseeeyetoeyeonthisoneG

Yea they take max rake as soon as the flop hits. The game is raped definitely. I also agree with playing tight in this particular game.

In my experience in these games alot of the older passive people love to limp big hands from EP. Sometimes with the intent to repop vs a raise or just calling so i dont think we can completely discount these hands. Saying that i think some of the big hand will reraise earlier in the hand.

The way i looked at this hand afterwards is direct pot odds vs our equity against his range here. Were gettin 2.5:1 here which means what we need at least 28% equity to call right.

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Board: AhQs6c9d3s
Equity Win Tie
CO 71.43% 71.43% 0.00% { AA, QQ, 99, 66, AQs, A9s, A3s, Q9s, AQo, A9o, A3o }
BU 28.57% 28.57% 0.00% { Ad6h }

So i think this call is probably break even here. If we decide that he opens at least AA or QQ than it gives us enough equity to call here vs pot odds.
This is minus any live reads that i fely i had.

Just a friendly advice
When 4 players limp to you in the SB or BB you should either raise or fold. Any hand, I really mean it, any hand you decide to be good to play, you should raise the limpers. Even if you suspect one may have a better hand then yourself. Doesn't matter. He limped, say with A9, you raise with A6 because he's gonna be looking to flop an Ace and anything else he will not call your c-bet when missing 66% of all flops in the universe. If the hand is not good enough why even investing 1/2 blind in the pot? There's no hope for A6o to see the flop and draw. There's nothing to draw to. You mostly flop 33% a pair of Aces or Sixes, both good for nothing and you can't go to the river with that hand. You got to win without a showdown.

Now, in your situation with two-pair due to pure luck, you should obviously bet.

If you play A6o with the mentality “I’ll get in cheap to see a flop and if I don’t flop two-pair I’ll fold and get out”, you can't go far in your poker hobby - This must have been your thinking preflop for sure, I know, because you can't possibly be serious and think to flop an Ace or a Six and be good against four other limpers.

How much time between the river bet and V's shove? If it was an insta-shove, then I am folding. If he thought for a while, I'm calling.

At these stakes, the long pause on a board like this seems to invariably be AK. And yes, at these stakes, a lot of people (especially older) WILL limp AK even if they are suited.

You know who limps AK and then calls 3 postflop barrels in a multiway pot only to finally spring the trap and shove for stacks with just one pair on the river? Absolutely no one who has played poker for more than 10 minutes.

The *only* time we see AK here is when he's misread it as AQ.

GimoG

I've seen it three times in just the past month at a local room (one discussed in the Membership-Based thread) where I have about 15 hours of play. Most of them were starting the hand with less than 100BB, but I have seen it in one hand where the player that shoved began the hand with just shy of $1400. All were at $1/$3 tables...

Too many people here forget that there are a lot of players that don't give a damn about strat sites or GTO or any of that stuff and instead just take lines that would be viewed here as sub-optimal (or worse).

When I respond in these thread, I draw from those experiences...especially when it has happened more than once in a recent period of play.

I guess everyone's experience at the table differs. I'd be absolutely floored if I saw that at my table.

I'm guessing in the big stack hand the guy with TPTK was turning his hand into a bluff?

Anyways, we'll just have to leave it up to the OP on how often he sees TPTK played like this at his table to decide whether or not is a likely hand candidate.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I dont know if id agree with opening A6o from the sb vs 4 limpers. More than likely i think we get called in a couple spots and were are playing a bigger pot OOP vs multiple opponents.

To just fold here when getting 5:1??. Im comfortable playing high spr pots OOP especially when i feel i have post flop edge. Obviously itll depend on board texture most of the time but sure, if your unsure of your post flop play than yea you can just fold pre here.

I think there are some merit to specific timing tells in some opponents. In this hand he pretty much snap called flop and turn and took a brief pause and shoved river.

I really think most older player that decide to get agressive with AK will do it on an earlier street. Most likely the flop.

What is 'older' for you? I've seen what I described coming every where from mid-30's (15 years younger than me) to probably pushing 70 (roughly 20 years older than me).

So...now that this has been hashed out probably as much as will occur, how did the balance of the hand play out?

If I had to bet the farm on either AA vs AK, I'd definitely bet the farm on AA.

Gdoesn'tactuallyownafarm,andno,Ididn'tloseoneinabe tG

Trying to play 1 player out of position versus 4 is quite a different story. And your 5:1 is assuming BB doesn't raise himself, which I assume your hand finds its way into the muck if that happens. but if you are planning to fold to any pressure, why are you bothering to put an extra dollar. Yes, it's a minor leak if you end up going complete/fold, but it is still a leak, and now your $1 mistake might be at least a 50 bb mistake.