I'll take a small stab at the rake consideration since the rake at my $1/$3 game is pretty high (10% up to $5.50 but $1 high hand drop for any pot >$20). I think the higher the rake, the more favorable conditions need to be for us to steal (as well as limp along). I remember Bart Hanson tweeted a while ago something about how limping along can become less profitable (depending on # of limpers) the higher the rake is & I think this idea can be applied to stealing as well.

With the rake in my game vs your avg $4 in most LV casinos, you need more favorable conditions to steal, but I don't think the higher rake should be a huge factor in this decision, more of a "if it's otherwise close" type of factor. So basically, my stealing frequency here should be slightly less than when I play in Vegas unless the stacks are deep enough, my opponents in the blinds play poorly enough etc to make up for the extra $ or 2.

That's why you min raise/3x it.

I agree...so good

mpethy,

Any thoughts on 3-bet squeezing? I loved the light three-betting post, but I find a raise and a call in front of me much more common than an uncalled open raise with no limpers before it.

I find that I mostly squeeze from the blinds and with a range that is oddly polarized between big hands (that I'm looking to play for stacks) and hands that I would often flat with if I were in position, but that suck to play OOP, such as 88-TT, AQo, etc. With these hands I'm generally looking to take the pot down pre, or that it down with a c-bet OTF.

Thoughts on these lines and/or other things we should be thinking about with squeezing?

I have been really looking for spots to squeeze. Heck, I've been looking for spots to 3bet a little lighter.

As stated before, I just don't see the point due to at least 70% of villains calling. I have no FE that I can find. When a villain raises, in my games, they are calling 3bets every time. I just haven't seen but maybe one fold in my last four sessions.

So, my adjustment, should I find it soon, is to open my value 3betting range up because I'm expecting a call. I just can't seem to find out how wide these guys are raise/calling because very few make it to showdown.

If people are basically never folding, (and I agree many raisers will not fold) then it stands to reason that their range to open is their range to call a 3 bet, with one or two possible exceptions for their loose raises.

Admittedly, this guy is an extreme example, but I table changed at the MGM yesterday afternoon to get to a table that was laughing and joking from the dour nitfest that I was sitting at. It quickly became clear that the action was being driven by a very jovial gambloor who was sitting 500BBs deep and playing about 70/50 with super obvious bet-sizing tells (raising 2.5-3.5x with any two suited, or OS connectors, and 5x-7x with any two broadway or a suited broadway).

Long story short, he called all of my 3bets PF, with all but one folding to my c-bet or a second barrel. The only hand I saw was when we went to showdown (AI OTT) to see that he'd raise/called 5c8c in MP.

So yeah, for some of these guys, pretty much anything that raises is calling a 3-bet. The good news is that most of them fold OTF most of the time, so while it is somewhat hi variance, it can be very profitable to iso these guys pretty wide.

You and Garick just turned a light bulb on a little brighter. Thanks.

I would, however, like to see a little evidence of just how wide the raise/calling range is either in it's middle or at it's bottom, at the table, before I start feeling these waters out. I figured the 3betting light discussion was heading the way of "button stealing" in that you are stealing their calls post flop with continued aggression vs a weak calling range that just doesn't hit a lot of flops hard enough to continue.

But, we blow up a pot so big when doing this. Don't we allow them to accidentally play a hand correctly vs us due to SPR?

For example, I hold KJs and decide to 3bet a loose raiser with a bit of a merged value range. I estimate villain is calling with 95% of what he raises.....full of middle suited connectors, baby pairs, and weak aces (both suited and offsuited). If villain raises to 8, and I 3! to 25, our pot on the flop will be 50ish. Assuming our effective stacks are 200, our SPRs are barely under a 4.

If flop is K X Xr, sure, we're going with our hand. If it's A Xs Xs, I doubt we are (although it's almost criminal to fail to cbet an Ahi flop in a 3bet pot imo).

However, if we flop Q 8 4, where villain flops the 8, isn't he correct to felt vs us here due to stack sizes and the fact we are likely just cbetting the 3bet pot? So, when he does call, we can't just call him a donkey because he did it right....even if he didn't know what he did. This kind of gets back to the fish playing you correctly with their tendencies to call.

Or, is this point more or less moot because our villains are putting us on AA in 3bet pots and never think their 8 is good enough by itself...only felting a Q or sets?

I am new to posting. However, I do have some thoughts on that last comments.
@chopper5654-
When 3 betting opponents that have light open/ call 3 bet ranges... You have to know two things before you 3 bet:

1. What type of opponent he is ( is he a station, aggro monkey, etc.) does he play fit or fold post flop, will he call any pair/ any draw to the river and maybe showdown?

2. What is your post flop plan? Most players adjust to light openers by 3 betting lighter (such as your KJ hand). But if you think he is more likely to call... You need to formulate a plan for the rest of the hand. Are you going to barrell all 3 streets if you miss? Are you going to just give up on the hand?

You should know what kind of flops are good to fire on that miss his range? Also, which flops smack his range that you should just check behind and give up on?

Obviously it is super easy to barrel k-x-x flops.
All that to say this... If you do not have a plan post flop... You will find yourself often not knowing what to do when you miss the flop and he calls your cbet. If you are unable to do this... It might be better to just flat his raise
And just play a pot in position

I don't have time today to reply to the posts on 3 betting and squeezing. I'll try to get to them tomorrow.

If we 3 bet KJ and flop a king, it is not an auto stack off, though.

If villain will felt middle pair, then we should be able to make a decent win rate from him provided we don't pit our stack in with air.

On boards where the hand we are repping is obvious, and I am bluffing, I tend to give up when they call the c-bet. Nothing is 100% though.

The low SPR is useful to us because it means we can usually get stacks in betting 2 streets. In such cases, holding KJ on a Jxx board, I will check the turn a lot, and c/f or c/c depending on the usual stuff. But what I am looking for is for villain to check back, which usually means mhig.

Is it tomorrow yet?

This.

And SOOO much this. This is a hidden gem here. Allows you to profitably play for stacks with a meh hand.

I haven't forgotten about the thread, but I have been really busy. But i definitely still plan to talk about the squeezing. Just variance, imo, but I have had 3 good squeeze opportunities in the last 10 hours of table time, which is pretty high, imo.

Saturday night, there was a guy who looked like he was trying to play tight aggressive, but was limping too much for that label to fit. he was probably playing 20/10 or so. I saw his first couple of raises were $10, and he usually got a caller or two. A few orbits later, he raised to $7, and got a caller. I had A8o, thought "good enough," and squeezed to $28 from the cutoff, and both folded.

A few orbits later, there was an UTG raise and a call from MP. Initial raiser was a bit of an unknown, but clearly a recreational player. He made it $10 preflop, and I squeezed AJo from the BB to $35, and both folded.

Very good post, with a lot of good advice

I also wonder what you guys actually do to make time pass when you have a cold run of cards and/or good spots, which easily can last for a few days playing live. Obviously you can observe other players etc, but is there anything specific you like to do that you belive have improved your game?

Don't just observe the hands you aren't involved in. If you're watching a HU pot, try to put both players on accurate ranges.

If it's a MW pot, focus on somebody and try to put him on a range. I'll focus on somebody because he is:

The preflop raiser
Somebody who looks solid
Somebody who is deep
A regular
etc.

Don't just sit and watch. Put them on ranges, and then adjust the ranges with each action, just as we should try to do when playing a hand.

I'm not perfect about doing any of this stuff, but when I am really focused, I watch a hand, and I summarize it after it concludes: "OK, the two seat raised to 7, was HU, and c-bet ace high dry. caller called the c-bet, but folded to a turn double."

As I am doing this the dealer is dealing the next hand. If i fold that hand, I go over in my head my mental notes from the session up to that point, trying to get as much of the above summary as possible for each of the hands I have observed. Eventually, instead of hand summaries, I am drawing conclusions from them--"2 seat varies his preflop raises with the strength of his hand; 4 seat triple barrel bluffed with static bet sizes on a bad board to bluff on; 7 seat c-bets air on wet flops," etc., etc.

I'm not sure this counts, but if I am having a REALLY dry run of cards, I pull out my phone and surf 2+2. It focuses me away from getting irritated that I am card dead, and helps keep me in a frame of mind close to my A game.

When I am actually on my A game, I will sit there and think of the ranges of cards I can open in different situations to exploit the nitty image the cards are giving me: "OK, it has been 4 orbits since I played a hand. That tight guy in the two seat has a bet sizing tell preflop, so if I pick up anything that makes a decent semi-bluff, I can 3 bet him. So, any suited ace or king, and the low SCs are gonna be my 3 bets against that guy; probably not yet to the point where I can 3 bet him with any two. But if I fold another complete orbit, I'll probably 3 bet his next open." Even if you don't get an opportunity to execute the plan, it's good practice coming up with a plan.

Eh, I forgot to mention one of the most useful time killing exercises: I will sit there and replay in my head the last few orbits, who was involved in what pots, whether they raised, called or limped, and I will try to assign them HUD stats; as a minimum, I try to have VPIP/PFR for each player within 2 orbits, and I estimate c-bet% and aggression factor as the night progresses.

TBH, most of the time I am card dead I'm chatting, and not focusing on the action. When I do focus, these are the things i focus on. So these two posts are more in the nature of do as I say, not as I do, lol.

@mpethy, one thing I'd like to ask you

You commented on a couple spots where you 3-bet/squeezed tight guys, and scooped pre-flop. You also said you were card dead with a nitty image, what should improve your steal success vs. villains.

However, what do you do when you're on a run of good cards? Do you let go good squeeze spots because you're being more active on past hands, or you make the moves for image purposes?

@all on killing time---

I think sooner or later all of us may need a short mental break. Just like dealers who get a break every hour or so.... You may start missing obvious things b/c your forcing yourself to pay 100% attention for too long.

If the cards are super dry... Or the play conditions dictate that I really have to nit it up I will:
Take a 10 minute break.... Or even a dinner break.
Chat up the othe players.
If I am having a really hard time... I break out the iPod and put a bud in one ear only. However, when playing... I put in music that is more soothing or that you don't really have to pay attention too. Such as classical or something cheesy like that. Worst case scenario... If I take a couple of beats and am getting frustrated... I turn on my Internet radio and will listen to a comedy channel. Nothing cheers u up from a bad beat like Chris rock or Lewis black

If I'm really bored, I'll walk over to a roulette table and throw $20 on black or other degen stuff. Gets points on the players card and lets the mind relax with mindless gambling. But I'm a degen at heart. For the non-degen at heart, just a good 10 minute walk should do the trick.

Coincidentally, I had just this situation come up last night:

1st orbit at the table, I get AT in MP1. Raisy daisy ($8), get 2 callers, button and BB. Flop is KQ9 BB, who has $100, leads for $20. I raise to $65, button folds, BB folds K9o face up.

I also raise UTG in this orbit, get 2 callers, c-bet air, both fold.

Maybe 5 or 6 hands later I am back in MP. UTG+1 ($600 stack) raises to $12 I have about $270 and call with 44, two other callers. Flop is 974r, a pretty standard spot to flatcall the $40 c-bet UTG+1 fires into the $50 pot. But I had just raised 10 hands ago, and imo raising would look weaker than calling, so I raise to $95 . All fold to UTG+1 who snap shoves, I snap call, and I'm set over setted by 99.

I have auto reload selected in my settings () so I rebuy up to $200.

I get KQs on my rebuy hand, multiple callers (3??), c-bet an ace high flop and all fold. A hand or two after that I pick up 88, raise, get 3 callers, c-bet a king hi flop and all fold, so I am right back to $280 or $290. One or two more hands later I am in the SB with AJo. MP raises to $10 and gets called by the button. This was a pretty good squeeze spot, but I was very cognizant of the fact that I am getting multiple callers and have been super active, having played maybe 5 of my first 15 hands at the table??? But I decide to go with a squeeze, and I raise to $40. The BB cold calls my 3 bet, so I am basically thinking of giving up if I don't flop gin, and then MP and the button call, too.

The results are actually relevant: $160 in the pot, my $250 is the short, effective stack in the hand. Flop comes down AJ2 rainbow. I lead for $65 , BB folds, MP folds and button shoves, I call, he flips AK and mhing to runner runner broadway.

The reason the results are relevant is because 2 of 3 people folded to a very small c-bet (relative to the pot). Their adjustment to my aggression and high level of activity at the table was to call me light and then play fit or fold. So this suggests that my initial impulse of giving up if I didn't flop gin might actually have been wrong--If I can get a fold from anybody who doesn't flop gin with a 40% of the pot c-bet, then there are going to be some spots where it is profitable to c-bet.

The third squeeze I had run prior to last night was a BB squeeze with AQ. EP raises to $6, gets 4 callers, I raise to $46, EP calls, all others fold. Flop comes down JTx, I lead for $55, he folds.

On both occasions, the players I was in against played their hands completely predictably. They guy in the AQ squeeze hand probably had AK, and couldn't fold it preflop, so he called and then played it straight fit or fold. The button in the AJ hand did exactly the same thing, except he happened to fit.

So if they are going to call us and then play strictly fit or fold, then we should win either when we outflop them, or when nobody flops anything. It looks to me like it's not that bad if they call us. They are sort of assuming we have QQ+, and they are looking to outflop that range. If they don't they'll often fold (The exception is going to be hands like JJ when JJ flops as an overpair--they won't usually fold to one bet).

The biggest thing I do is range people and put them on hands as they play out. You get tremendous value from showdowns and bets.

I knew I was getting better when my reads became more accurate.

Also watching people's reactions is big. Watch for the basic tells like someone who immediately grabs for chips when the flop hits like they can't wait to bet, etc.

Somebody expressed surprise in a recent thread when I said I opened T9s for a profit UTG in online poker. I've been meaning to talk about my opening range ever since then, and I finally have some free time to do so.

First, a caveat: I'm just describing what I do. I'm not claiming this is the best or optimal or only way to play EP. But it is a strategy that balances bet sizing, range, table conditions and stack sizes, and is, therefore, more complex than simply betting $16 with a top 3% range and limp/calling everything else.

I do believe that in my games, my strategy is a more profitable strategy than just raising huge with the top 3%. But what I really hope is that you'll see the way I adjust, and come up with your own plan for varying your opening range based on changes in your game condition that happen to come up from time to time.

OK, so my basic plan from EP is to open my standard 8-10% range in UTG and UTG+1. That's not a magic number, it's just the widest range that I know I was playing for a profit at NL $200 online.

It breaks down like this:

Almost always open:

66+
AQo+
KJs+
JTs, T9s

In addition, I usually open:
AJs
22-55
87s

That is 9.8% of all starting hands, but since I do not always open the second group, I am probably raising 8% of the time, not 9.8%

Every now and again I will throw in some random decent hands at a particularly weak table, and UTG+1 I always raise AJs.

Every hand in this EP raising range is a profitable hand; none of them are in there to balance my range or make my range harder to read or for shania or any other reason other than to make .4-.8bb/hand on average when raising them.

Variations based on table conditions:

As I said, that is my default range. If I sit down at a table in MP, and I get one of these hands three hands later UTG, I'll raise it to $8 and see what happens, with a plan to adapt both my range and my raise size to prevailing conditions.

Mixed tables:

This is by far the most common situation you will find. The table will have a couple guys trying to play TAg, a couple trying to play LAg, and the remainder won't really have an idea what they are doing, but they are generally loose passive preflop and weak tight fit or fold players post flop.

At a normal mixed table, I don't adjust much. If $8 gets three or more callers too many times, I'll start raising my preflop raise in $2 increments until I find the bet size that will get people to fold. I rarely find the correct point, as in a normal session, you'll really only RFI from the first three positions maybe 7 times. So a lot of bet sizing ends up being a guessing game. But you can also get a decent idea of how they will react based on their reactions to other people's bet sizing. So I'm always in the ballpark of the optimal range/raise size mix, but never positive I've got the exact right mix.

Adjusting for looseness:

When I do start increasing my raise size, I also tighten up my starting range by removing the implied odds hands that play the worst. So I'll drop 87s and 22-55 first when I start raising to $10, and at $12 I'll probably be dropping 77, 66, JTs, T9s. If we're deeper than 100bb, then I may keep in some of the speculative hands. I've never found it necessary to use a raise greater than $12 to thin the field to usually between 1 and 3 callers. YMMV, and based on what I have seen in your threads from elsewhere in the country, your mileage certainly does seem to vary considerably.


The goal here is to narrow my range to the hands that flop a decent top pair most often. Multi-way with multiple callers OOP, you're basically playing bingo. I have a little less FE at a normal table than I like to have, so I focus more on the hands that flop something most often. Having KJs in my range is a bit risky for such a table, but I keep it in.

Adjusting for tightness:

At a tight table, where there are maybe 4 people trying to play TAg instead of 2, I will usually reduce my raise size while opening my range to its widest. If there are 5 tight players at the table, I'll probably be raising to $6 or $7, and opening ATs, A9s, A8s, J9s, T8s, 86s and some other stuff that slips my mind at the moment.

I'm semi-bluffing with these hands, basically. Trying to manufacture spots where I get a caller who'll fold to a c-bet. I don't want to get fancy, and don't really want to flop a hand, lolol, if you know what I mean. I expect to make my profit from c-betting air, not from actually flopping a hand. Setting aside the occasional gin flop, most of these hands will get you into trouble if you treat the pair you flopped with much respect. It's just back up equity for when your bluff c-bet gets called when you have 86s and you bet a K62r flop or an AJ6 flop. the great thing about your back up equity is it comes with great implied odds. If you raise UTG and bet a K62 flop, the villain has you on a K or a premium or something, not 86s, so a turn 6 is gonna get you paid really well if the villain gets sticky with his king or under pair or whatever, because he thinks that 6 was a brick.

That's pretty much as wide as my range gets, so it's reserved for spots where the table is as tight as I can ever expect to see.

Just remember that preflop there are three factors to consider in setting your EP raising range:

1. Stacks
2. Bet size
3. Table conditions

Some explanation for my default range composition:

This is some of the best poker advice I ever got. Years ago, I did a training video on Deuces Cracked in which an excellent player called Tuba Steve, and the near-legendary Baluga Whale evaluated my play at NL $100 online.

In the course of the video, I folded KJs UTG. Baluga said I should have raised, and TS said it looked like a standard fold. Baluga said: "look; when people call an UTG raise, they are looking to crack pocket aces. So when I add hands to my UTG range, I add hands that can crack hands that are looking to crack pocket aces, lol."

That two sentences is more or less the reason for all of the suited connectors in my range--because they make straights and flushes that beat the sets that people are looking to flop against your perceived premium pocket pair.

It doesn't happen very often. But in the meantime, they are missing 7.5 out of 8.5 times they set mine, and they'll fold to a c-bet most of those times.

In live play, people who call in position are pair mining and flush mining as often as they are set mining; I see zillions of raises called by hands like K7 and K8 and A7 and A8. That's not that bad for the suited connectors, because now you're in a cool semi-bluffing situation. If you raise UTG with T9s, and get called by Kx, it's hard for you to have missed a flop that he also hits. So when looking at a board that you missed and that hit a pair miner's top pair range, you c-bet only those boards on which you have some decent equity or backdoor equity. So if the flop is K76 and I have JT, I have enough back door equity to fire a c-bet.

If you bink your gut shot, there's a good chance he has two pair, and he thinks he is getting it in good against AK or AA. If you pick up equity you can barrel again or check, depending on whether he is a pot controller or not (check or bet respectively, imo, though I expect that to be a controversial statement).

The other thing about the middle suited connectors is it's actually really hard to completely miss a flop, and it's pretty easy to pick up equity on the turn. So say we raise T9s, and the flop comes down 752r. That's maybe one of the worst flops you can see, and you're not really in bad shape. You can still rep an overpair, and you have overs to a range that'll call you. The overs give you a 12% chance of binking a turn. If start looking at all the cards that will improve our equity, it is a 6 an 8 or a second card of our suit. That's 15 cards that'll give us equity with which to barrel what is most likely a very weak hand calling a very strong perceived range. Combine those together and roughly 40% of the time, we'll improve and have a good double barrel spot. If you add A, K or Q as general scare cards, then we are up to something like 55-60% of the time we'll have a good double spot on a board it looked like we pretty much bricked off on.

That's why I think these middle suited connectors are such cool hands to have in your EP range--because they will win you lots of 0 and 1 street of post flop money pots, and every now and again you'll crack a set that thinks it cracked your AA.

Even though cracking sets will end up being a major contributor to your win rate, it's very, very rare. I think I have only cracked somebody once so far in live games playing ~100% of these hands in my EP range. Playing the smaller spots and identifying your back door equity situation correctly is equally important from a win rate perspective, and more of a day to day activity.

More or less random thoughts.

i played with Alan Schoonmaker in a small stake limit game years ago in vegas. he was seriously bad and when i found out later that he wrote a book on the game... all i could do was LOL.

i seen that book numerous times at the store. picked it up the first time but once i saw his ugly mug on the back... well you couldn't get me to read it if it was free!

now you telling me this book actually has substance?

He never claimed to be a good player, and doesn't talk strat.

His stuff is psychology - why people do things they do.

very helpful post

This was the first poker book I read. Got a bunch of them with my PStars player points.

It's a good book.