I wanted to get this in before I read further and got sidetracked.

I can tell you from MY perspective....as a nitty player currently....this is a huge missed opportunity in your 3betting. I am raising a tight range to 12, true. But, I am rarely calling a 3bet, and only 4betting KK+ at the moment. I assume many others like me have played this way for years. You need to be taking advantage of them.

I am raising to 12+ to thin a field, get more money in the pot with premiums, cut my SPR down for felting TPTK+, taking away your implieds when I don't plan on getting away from favorable flops that run crappy after I've committed, etc.

But, again, I am NOT calling a lot of 3bets. I don't have to deal with them in my games frequently, so it's not a huge leak of mine to just let the spots go, assuming my 88 or AJs is dominated/flipping/etc.

I believe the raise size is a HUGE tell. And, one you should be looking for.....from players like me. Until I adjust and give you the $7 raise and a 4bet, you should just pound into me every chance you get. There is no one in my game that I've found, yet, willing to do this. And, the guy that starts will still be a little easier to avoid until he gets out of hand. The rest of the table will NEVER adjust to this gaping preflop strategy knowing what I'm exposing myself to but still not needing to adjust in such passive games.

I'm not the only one, yay!

I too suffer from folding too much of my BT/CO opens to a 3bet. It doesn't come up very frequently because either I'm just lucky to always be in donk/fish/passive games or I'm just very good at selecting games that fill the bill.

When I do encounter a spot where there's a good player who sniffs out my leak and 3bets me fairly often from the blinds, I look to seat change or table change obviously. Failing that, I significantly tighten up opening range in general, except that I pay EXTRA careful attention to the villain who has been 3betting me with frequency - if he goes on a cigarette break, I know to instantly step back into "Open wide from LP" default mode. If he's clearly given off indications that he's going to fold (something EVERY ONE OF US DOES), instantly back into "open wide from LP" mode. It's actually kind of interesting if the "good player" I am making sure to not stay as wide as normal has another buddy at the table, they actually get really confused, because the other buddy will see that I had a fairly wide range of raises, but then it tighetend up after "Good player" started 3betting, but then it got loose again....but "good player" won't agree, he'll wonder WTF his buddy is smoking, since "good player" never saw me loosen back up. And suprisingly, they never get that I change my own range precisely on whether "good player" is at the table / giving off tell of fold / on a cigarette break.

To put it in lingo for you online guys, balancing my range, or disgusing my range, based on whether a specific player is on a cigarette break or not, can be very useful, both because you want to avoid said player in the first place, and second, because now the best player at the table besides you ranges you one way, and everyone else ranges you another way. Woohoo.

Interesting post. I'll think about it, but IME, the guys that raise to $12 have a fold to 3 bet that is very low--like maybe 25 or 30%??? You might be unusually willing to fold for someone on such a strong range?

I was pretty sure that I had a clear idea that the guys on the tight ranges were usually calling, but I will move this conclusion from the "fact" mental category back to the "requires additional evidence" category.

Thanks for your thoughts.

sorry, i just think what your calling a 'winning image' is non-sense, and prolly just your imagination at work.
sorry if that sounds harsh, just my .02.

also, you didnt address the logic-fail that I pointed out.
your 'winning image' is either illogical, or its a poor word-choice. (good doesnt = winning/ winning doesnt = good)

according to the real definition,
- the worst player in the world can go on a heater in any session, and develop a winning image (ppl will be fearful, and play worse against him/her; its not rational, its just the way human psychology works.)
- it does not carry over from session to session.
- a winning image just means that youve shown the winning hand more often than not in a session. you can also call it a 'good' image.
- a 'bad' image is when you havent dragged a pot, or youve got caught bluffing a lot, in that session. again, it doesnt carry over. good players will quit when they have a bad image, because their edge is reduced.

If you can't see for yourself that pedantic poker talk at the table decreases the
velocity of chips by those not as versed as you on the subject, then i can't explain it any further;>>> I can't open your eyes for you.<<<

i was actually shocked that you werent convinced that poker talk at the table is neg. EV, when its as obvious as the sky being blue.

so, what do you tell them when they ask if youre a pro??
(if i get that question, i either ignore it, or BS them)

if they are even asking this question in a 1/2 game (where there are no pros) you are doing something very wrong, imo.

what you are addressing as some kind of universal poker truth, is nothing more than you
taking your own leaks, and projecting them over the game as a whole, which is pretty funny, actually.

DGAF doesnt run into these problems that you associate with what you erroneously call a 'winning image'. (ie. losing action), and he crushes.
he also isnt a pedant, and gets fish to gamble with him.
youve never seen a fish fold out of spite to a 'know-it-all'?
I bet its happened to you myriad times. LOL if youve never recognized it, or if you lie to yourself that it's because 'youre a pro'.

you claim to have some permanent 'winners image', but can't even beat 2/5 at the MGM? (when it runs).
I played it the other week, when i went there to meet you, and it was the softest game i played the whole trip.
if those players eat you alive, quit poker, imo.

2/5 players may not even be fundamentally better than 1/2 players, but they may pay attention more. (and therefore know/ want to withhold action from you.)

if you don't want to play your hand face up, why would you tell ppl who you are at the poker table??
I dont get it at all.

This is probably not true. A high fold to 3 bet from the button and the cut off is an inevitable byproduct of a sufficiently wide stealing range. If you are folding 70% of the time or so, that's perfectly fine, if you are also stealing 30 or 40%.

I just felt it needed to be said that even the perceived nits are potentially opening wider than TT+/AQs. I have been making pot sweetners because they don't get exploited and put my SPR in a range that's easier to play....or get paid. I raise probably 10%+ of my range in LP, but you don't likely notice because it's just not that often and I don't get to showdown much from LP. I'm just playing like I have a large pp or AK because that's what you think I have. But, sometimes it IS 78s or 44. In those times, you only find that out if I bink pretty big and commit.

However, if you 3bet me, you will find out really quickly how crappy my range can be. And, if you 3bet me enough, unlike FTS apparently, I will toss in a couple 4bets on you with hands that play ok when called, but it's still going to take me a LOT of convincing that you are 3betting ME light. I only have to do it once to completely chill your light 3betting out. But, it shouldn't be. You shouldn't EVER deviate from 3betting me light. It's just that 99.9% of 1/2 players will never commit to 3betting light vs a nitty borderline w/t post flop psuedo TAGgy player. I really hope to change this image of myself over time, but as everything else, it's a work in progress.

True story here:

I am playing a 1/2 at the V sitting next to an older lady. We are chatting it up about w/e. She asks if I'm from here (Vegas). I say no. All of a sudden the runners come up to her and address her by first name. "Hey XXXXX you going to play the 5/10 today." She responded "maybe" very quickly and kind of hurried them along. The dealers all knew her name and she was getting a little mad, not much though. She looks at me and says, "Well you at least know I play higher." I responded, "That's what the runners say." She laughs and says, "Yeah I really wish they would treat me like everyone else and quit talking to me. I'll go to the damn 5/10 when I am ready." A kid sits down a couple minutes later with a 50BB stack. He looked nervous and out of place. I say, "To me this guy doesn't look like he belongs here, maybe it's his first time or something." She says, "You sure about that? Have you seen the way he riffles his chips?" How do I miss that? ( he busted soon after and left... so is it cheap chip tricks or body language? w/e... my whole thing is if I missed that, how many other people missed/seen it.. oh an anyone can do chip tricks)

IMO, for the most part, people's ego would rather call the guy at the other end of the table who is up a gazillion dollars a luck box and a worse player than they are. Some people do take notice though. When you are a reg playing with other regs its LDO. But for the tourist there for a good time, out of how many of them do you think actually see your image as winning rather than the luckbox POS that just stacked them? What I wrote above I believe more so had to do with being a reg. At my casino everyone knows me. I walk in and my chips are already out and I'm clocked in. In Vegas you have a bigger player pool. Mpethy could definitely name more of the regs than I could. I can spot some of them - the tournament regs and the cash regs but I for sure don't know the other 95%. I think there are some tourists who can spot that kind of thing, but really what % of the tourists do you think actually peg you as a winning player and not some POS luckbox nitty old man? (sorry about the old man part ) Going by an example above in your OP its 50/50. 1 guy knew the and the other guy did not. Small sample size I know. I'm just throwing it out there for the fun of it.

What about manipulating that image a little against the guy with a winning image even if I do not know who you are yet. Not sure if in this post or another one you said someone completed the dbag look by wearing some glasses. Since I know what you look like and you don't know me from Adam, what would your impression be of me when I sat down with glasses on, beside the dbag thing? I would think it would be, "This guy watched this game too many times on ESPN." And you might label me as a fish. Or do you just say hey look a dbag and form no opinion on me until I play. What about if I was wearing a patch and glasses? Different opinion then? I think there are ways out of the winning image if you do not want it when it comes to unknowns. If in fact a high number of the unknowns are paying attention.

I love this discussion BTW. I could discuss this stuff all day.

Wow. Your game sure plays differently than mine. $12 is the standard opening here if there are no limpers before the opener. It goes up from there a) if there are limpers, or b) (and much more commonly) based on hand strength. Any two broadway gets opened for $12 in most positions (or limp/called) by most players in the poker metropolis that is Cripple Creek.

I saw two opens to $30 at 1/2 last night, one as a true OR, and one over 3 limpers. Both got called. One of them got 3 limp/calls. Both were made with big PPs (once queens and once aces).

$6-8 raises here are almost always pot sweeteners with small-medium PPs, suited connectors, etc. and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM gets called multiple ways. I have only seen winning players fold for less than 5xBB once they already have 1BB in the pot. In fact, that and not always completing the SB in limped pots with ATC is how I tell that someone is above average.

I disagree with this a ton. And to anyone else who says there are no pro 1/2 players. Some people don't need a huge amount of money. Maybe they own their homes through smart financial decisions and the only thing they need to pay for is groceries. Could be retired military playing 1/2 for extra cash flow. I think people's idea of "pro" is hugely diluted. They hear pro and they think balla limo's playing in Bobby's room. I would love to see a thread, or maybe even here, on the definition of pro.

Here is the dictionary . com definition:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/professional

1.
following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
2.
of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.
3.
appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.
4.
engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.
5.
following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.

Number one says as a means of livelihood or GAIN

Gain does not mean gaining to pay to bills. Gain could mean gaining to take a trip to the Bahamas.

Maybe Pro Poker Player has a different meaning. Would love to hear the thoughts on this. I go back and forth on it... but I am more so on the side of it's pro than it's not pro.

c'mon mpethy.
most random 1/2 villians at the MGM dont even know that there is such thing as a winner,
other than from watching WPT.
and in the 1/2 game they would mostly be right. (the rake).

And I think you think this because it strokes your ego to have a condescending view of the other players at the table, and you are unwilling or unable to credit them with the ability to use their intelligence and powers of observation.



This is a discussion that came up in the chat thread. I've never seen any evidence of it. But I don't generally talk poker, and the people I see talking poker are usually talking bad poker, and there's no reason for that to have any effect on the other players at the table. Meh; as I said in the chat thread, I'm agnostic on this subject.

I tell the truth. I'm not comfortable lying. My stock answer is, "not exactly, I actually mainly coach internet players."

I may very well be doing something wrong. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

But what do you mean there are no pros at 1/2? I know of two other guys that play 1/2 for a living and are regs at the MGM, one who makes his home at PH and Bally's I think he said???, and, man, maybe half a dozen at the V. Those are just the ones I know and have spoken to.

Except it's not.

Some players who know what I do tighten up against me; probably most. That's fine, it increases my FE against them.

Really, I think you are insane. Where in the world did you get the idea I am a loser in the 2/5 game in the MGM??? You just make **** up and then act like it's a fact, in exactly the same way as you said "there are no pros at 1/2" and the other nonsense you spewed.

FTR, I have only ever played the 2/5 game at the MGM once, and finished up $200 in 2 hrs of play. Lifetime in vegas I am up at 2/5, but in such a ridiculously small sample that it is completely meaningless.

Where do you get this stuff? I mean, you are literally just making **** up.

Choper, presuming he's got a style like mine, which appears to be the case, is not someone who shows up very often in live play, so it's not a player you have to often concern yourself with.

The style that opens very wide but folds quickly to most pressure is one element of a style of play that focuses on the fact that the vast majority of live players fit into very neat categories of bad play; some call anything pre-lfop, others are super nitty, etc., so raising to $12 in position, and none of these groups 3bet that much; they have different calling ranges and different post-flop play, but 3betting is rare.

So what happens is we open to $12 with a wide variety of hands because we'll know exactly who is in the hand after the flop, what their line is, whether we are good and whether we should value bet or look to bluff the others out, etc....

If someoen starts 3betting us and we fold repeatedly, it's going to kill our profit - entirely true. You probably expect us to call more often and 4bet more often given what you've seen from the PFR%. However, because our play isn't targetted towards a good player 3betting light or with a potential.ly wide range, but rather it's targetted to bad players who are ONLY going to 3bet monsters (which mean we muck unless we have a specific monster-cracker like 76s).

So when you sit down in the BB and I'm on button, you 3bet me a few times, I shut down the play. It just gets removed. That probably confuses the heck out of you, and also when I revert back to opening wide when you're dealt out of the hand, that probably confuses you to.

I guess the general point is that I've crafted my entire game around the absolute most awesome and amazing ways to crush the many different types of donks. I'm trying to improve the part of my game for playing you guys. In exchange, I can help improve the part of your game concerning how to best exploit the donks - we all win against them in the long run, I just feel I win even more from the donks than you guys (not bragging or anything, just staying).

I know of no one making their sole source of income playing 1/2.
name me some names, please.
I love my win rate at 2/5 and living in California on it, i'm squeeking by on it.

most ppl say that you cant make a living at 2/5, and that 5/10 is the minimum stakes for a pro.
ive been doing this (2/5) for @5 years, with the exception of going back to plumbing for a year when i went broke, and i can tell you that its not much of a living.
even 5/10, and 10/20 players are complaining that the games allow them to make much less than they are used to over the last few years, and they are hurting.
and you claim you can make a living at 1/2?

i cant believe i'm even arguing this point. it's just common knowledge.
mpethy claims that there are ppl in Vegas making a living at 1/2. let me know if they are around in a couple of years w/out moving up.

Yes, the games I have played in Vegas play radically differently than the ones I have seen players elsewhere describe.

Here in Vegas, the typical open raise size has come down to $7 or $8 plus a bit for limpers. So $15 raises are actually pretty common, but that's because there are often multiple limpers.

There are old school players still around who open raise big, but they are usually a minority at the table, and they are, like I said, usually on a tight range.

^^^ ???

Dude, you live in California, the land of the highest cost of living in the known universe, lolol. You know I bought a 4 bedroom house in Vegas for less money than californians spend on a car, right?

In Vegas, you can EASILY live on 24k/yr, which is more or less what the full time 1/2 guys are making, I think.

Oh, JFC, that was a hypothetical statement designed to illustrate the relative nature of being viewed as a "good player."

I understand now. Sorry I flew off the handle.

But JFC, it was obviously hypothetical. OF COURSE I would have an edge in the 2/5 game, lol.

Whatever your reasons are for playing 1/2 the fact is that you should be living like a ****ing pauper and doing whatever else you can to get your roll up for 2/5 ASAP

Tryin to lurk plz slow down guyz

Like I said... everyone has a different definition of what making a living is. I want to see a thread on the definition of what a poker pro is... and in that thread 90% of the posters would have to agree.

Some people don't have credit cards, mortgages/rent/ car payments, etc. Making $15 hour tax free (I am not saying don't pay your taxes, but you know it happens) is good enough for them. In fact that is basically what I make after taxes at my IRL job and I am making a "living." The only real upside that I have is health and 401K (and my +EV ESPP, that's not everywhere though). Some people don't need 401K or health though. They may already have all that from working years in w/e industry and it part of their pension plans.

I think your definition is someone who grinds and pays the bills which includes rent/mortgage, car payment, groceries, utilities, child support, alimony, etc. Am I wrong? Not everyone has everyone of those things. It doesn't mean they should not be considered professional because they aren't Knish from Rounders.

Yeah stampler didn't eat his wheaties today. Plenty of 1/2, 1/3 pros across the country. Stampler the regular "big" game across the country is 2/5. So playing 1/2 as a profession is doable/manageable. Most of the fish will play 1/2 and 2/5 who don't have a bankroll.

As for the winning image, mphethy is correct. If you play at the same casino all the time. You will be labeled a winning player because you play often and solid. Fish are stupid but they know competent players when they see one.

Also, big cheese said if your over 50 you should be bluffing way more.

you are blind?

you can't distinguish a good game (ppl drinking, laughing, joking, and chips moving), from a bad one (solemn poker analysis, critques of every play, chips not moving)???

try opening your eyes, bro.

finally, a perceptive comment from you ITT.

you have to be insane to play poker because you can't do anything else.

This could very well be true also. Living in the Bay Area is insanely expensive. My house here I bought for 131K (108 after down payment)... in the bay area it would of been worth 650K+ at the time I bought mine. My sister has a smaller house in Livermore and at one time (the good ole' days) their house was worth 600K. Sick. My house payment is cheaper than 90% of Bay Areas rent and I'm on a 15 year loan. This is BBV obviously. This thread needed some.

what did Limon say about 1/2 pros??