88 on the Button with Third 8 Exposed - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum

Two Plus Two Forums Poker Strategy Live No-Limit Hold’em Cash

88 on the Button with Third 8 Exposed

Post Reply Subscribe

...

10-15-2023 , 06:50 AM

adonson

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,214

In a previous hand against some pros and a degen, I had TT with a third T exposed. Following Harrington, Venice suggested to always fold a pair with the set card exposed. Chaos suggested a raise.

In this hand below, there were no pros or degens. HJ (275), CO (150), and BB (350) are loose-passive calling stations. Hero (325) has a tight image. This time, he did not give any tells. Stakes: 1/2.

OTTH

Dealer announces 8 of clubs exposed. HJ limps, CO calls. Hero on the button with 8d8h?

Quote

10-15-2023 , 07:27 AM

larry the legend

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,500

Why not reopen your old thread if you are going to post the exact same hand? What are you looking for here that was not provided to you in the previous same hand you posted?

Quote

10-15-2023 , 07:48 AM

adonson

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,214

Quote:

Originally Posted by larry the legend

Why not reopen your old thread if you are going to post the exact same hand? What are you looking for here that was not provided to you in the previous same hand you posted?

New hand, new post: TT in SB against pros and a degen plays way different than 88 on the button against loose passives.

Quote

10-15-2023 , 10:10 AM

larry the legend

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,500

Loose passive calling stations who don’t fold and you are going to have a pair of 8s on the flop turn and river.

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...UQMygFegQIARBj

Quote

10-15-2023 , 11:07 AM

ChaosInEquilibrium

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2019 Posts: 3,356

Raise to a normal size. You are not getting value from 88 only by flopping sets…88 also has good pair value. Assuming you get a couple calls, you can cbet flops where there is at most one overcard to your pair like J63, etc. Having position helps a ton since you’re gonna get to see a showdown way easier as the passive opponents will be checking a lot of turns and rivers from OOP.

Quote

10-16-2023 , 04:43 PM

adonson

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,214

Thank you for criticism of the rest of the hand:

Hero raises to 12. V1 in BB continues. HJ folds.

Flop (23 after rake): Qc4d5h

BB and HJ check. Hero bets 15. HJ calls

Turn (50 after rake): 7c

Checks through.

River: Ad.

V1 donks 35. Hero folded.

Quote

10-16-2023 , 04:50 PM

Playbig2000

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 12,784

I would still raise pre. We're crushing their ranges and we still have SDV by itself without flopping a set.

I would bet the turn here vs a calling station and plan on checking back the river, but as played now I would definitely fold (a passive calling station donking out like that is usually a hand that beats us).

Quote

10-16-2023 , 05:19 PM

larry the legend

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,500

This is a small pot, so small mistake, but i think fairly obvious that anyone advising to raise this hand is missing a pretty simple concept. These players have been described as calling stations. The odds of our hand improving and being the best hand by the river are nonexistent. These are not the players we want to be attempting to push off of hands. As venice said its a fold even vs unknown villains. Unless you have some guys who continue with only top pair or better on the turn, there is quite a bit of -EV raising in this spot.

Quote

10-17-2023 , 09:06 AM

ChaosInEquilibrium

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2019 Posts: 3,356

Action is confusing: HJ folds pre, but then check-calls flop? Then BB donks river? Is it 3ways on river or heads up?

Seems like you played the hand fine….Q54 is a great board for a cbet. Slowing down on turn is sensible. River is a funny spot because V shouldn’t be value betting Qx. Which means he must have run into an A (AQ/AK) or he flopped a set.

Quote

10-17-2023 , 11:14 AM

#10

Playbig2000

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 12,784

Quote:

Originally Posted by larry the legend

I would agree with you if we had 66/77 and below in this situation, but once we get up to 8's and above we start to have SDV and since we have position we're able to control the pot as well. We don't have to bet on every street and we can fold if they start throwing bets out there but I'm not folding pocket 8's otb after two limps that's ludicrous.

Quote

10-17-2023 , 01:24 PM

#11

larry the legend

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,500

Quote:

Originally Posted by Playbig2000

Folding pocket 88s vs calling stations no matter what your position when one of the other 8s is exposed is the furthest thing you can find from ludicrous. I would rather have two random cards I never looked at.

Quote

10-17-2023 , 07:56 PM

#12

adonson

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,214

Sorry I parsed the of the hand poorly. At least the pot sizes were correct. Corrections on in bold:

Dealer announces 8 of clubs exposed. HJ limps, CO calls. Hero on the button with 8d8h? Hero raises to 12. V1 in BB continues. HJ folds. CO calls.

Flop (23 after rake): Qc4d5h

BB and CO check. Hero bets 15. BB calls. CO folds

Turn (50 after rake): 7c

Checks through.

River: Ad.

BB donks 35. Hero folded.

Quote

10-17-2023 , 08:48 PM

#13

ChaosInEquilibrium

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2019 Posts: 3,356

Pot sizes can’t be correct if it went 3x12 preflop plus 5 dead - 5 rake. Should the pot be around 36 on the flop?

Quote

10-17-2023 , 09:04 PM

#14

Playbig2000

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 12,784

I woulda bet 20 on the turn, then checked back the river but now you have to fold.

Maybe he had Ax and he woulda folded ott which is probably what would have likely happened.

Quote

10-17-2023 , 09:41 PM

#15

submersible

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2021 Posts: 2,041

idk i think you should limp pre bc of the dead 8 but raise is possibly ok. id check flop or bet smaller but usually just check (i think people play much worse vs missed cbet than cbet and you cannot be betting all of this hand class into multiple, the fact you have 1 out less to improve i think makes it more of a x and see what happens). im pretty sure we want to get funneled into the passive nodes post because of the dead 8 which would make me want to overlimp more pre.

im not sure if thats right but it makes sense to me. dont fold your hand otb when 2 fish limp in front of you, thats easily the worst option.

Quote

10-17-2023 , 10:03 PM

#16

larry the legend

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,500

Quote:

Originally Posted by submersible

He just lost 13bb without even playing poorly post flop That tells you everything you need to know about it. Easily the worst option is not folding.

Quote

10-17-2023 , 11:00 PM

#17

submersible

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2021 Posts: 2,041

so because he lost the hand calling and raising are -ev?

Quote

10-17-2023 , 11:10 PM

#18

larry the legend

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,500

Because he was losing pretty much always

Quote

10-18-2023 , 06:25 AM

#19

adonson

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,214

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaosInEquilibrium

Pot sizes can’t be correct if it went 3x12 preflop plus 5 dead - 5 rake. Should the pot be around 36 on the flop?

Yes, and around 60 after rake on the turn. Sorry, I messed up transferring my game notes into an accurate hand history. Thanks for your patience and advice.

Quote

10-18-2023 , 08:45 AM

#20

moxterite

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 1,996

Psychological factors would come into play for me. Whether +EV or -EV, I can't help thinking that I would start obsessing about the exposed card and make poor decisions throughout the hand. With that in mind, I would personally just fold quietly and move on, regardless of whether it's a theoretically bad fold.

Quote

10-18-2023 , 08:51 AM

#21

moxterite

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 1,996

Just caught up with the original thread, which is a rollicking good read.

Quote

10-18-2023 , 09:33 AM

#22

Playbig2000

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 12,784

The bottom line is we shouldn't be "set mining" when we're raising with pocket 8's otb after two limps in a 1/2 game. Are we c/f'ing if we don't flop a set and it gets checked to us heads up on a J47r flop? If we are, then this thread opened up a whole new can of worms.

If we're in the BB and there was a raise and a caller with an 8 exposed, then yes I'm folding there but not in adonson's hand.

Quote

10-18-2023 , 10:14 AM

#23

Stupidbanana

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 2,009

Quote:

Originally Posted by adonson

fold. next hand.

Quote

10-18-2023 , 03:20 PM

#24

adonson

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,214

Some of the same posters who favored over-limping with 22 on the button in another post are favoring now folding 88 on the button with an 8 exposed. Those calling for a raise with 22 on button against limpers are calling here for a raise as well.

Quote

10-18-2023 , 04:04 PM

#25

larry the legend

veteran

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,500

Quote:

Originally Posted by Playbig2000

So we are cbetting into two guys who hate to fold with pocket 88s that have near one out to improve? If this is our logic, again Id rather have two random cards I had not seen when I raised. Because knowing I started with a mediocre hand that really never picks up more equity is baffling. This has happened to me twice in the last year. I snap folded both times. Its no different than picking up 3 kings with a deuce, all rainbow in PLO. You muck it.

Quote

Post Reply Subscribe

...