your looking at your 5b ranges wrong this deep
if hes gonna click buttons left and right and 4b super wide and stuff then you should be 5b pretty much your whole continuing range for like 2.5x
something like tt+ aqs+ kj+
now you have aa so its the top of that range, you obviously wanna give him a chance to spazz with a hand or talk himself into getting qq or kk ak aipf (wont happen a ton but you need to allow him the chance)
anyway u need to charge him extra money for his button clicking so its a real easy 5b like everyone else said
as played i dont think his c/r is fos very often but im still not folding the best hand in my range

Thanks for all the response guys. This hand happened a long time ago and since then I changed my game a bit. I do agree that pre should be a 5bet given vilains profile, even though I dont think flatting to let him go crazy is too bad. Unfortunatly things didnt work out for me because he ended up having J8ss, however, since he 4bets as wide as J8ss and probably plays a big part of his range like this, I think the call is massively +ev.

I know exactly who you are refering too but no its not him. This was a guy who I had never seen before but played a similar style. Do you play at the vic 2/5 often?

I know this is an old one but there are a lot of good basic points to be made from this HH. I'm only going to do the top subject in my mind for now.

1). OP arrives at the correct assumption (that a 5! will scream KK+, and villains will mostly fold), but the wrong adjustment (to flat the 4bet).

The proper adjustment** is to have a wider 5betting range. Literally just throw some of the combos of suited wheel Ax and you will be fine. You have a nut situation to cold 5bet here to the point of which Id actually be more excited to see A4 here than AA. When everyone yawn folds and calls you a nit show the 4 ldo.

**Now, I've said all of that, but this is even more important, and completely counter to my first point. You actually don't have to make adjustments. You can take face up lines and literally announce to the table you have AA, LITERALLY, and it will still be more profitable to 5b. So even if you are a scared money nit that VPIPs once a session (me), you still gotta take face up lines for fat value here.

You have the best hand in poker and are 1 trillion bb's deep. Absolute worst case scenario you collect ~$200 uncontested. That's a sweet worst case scenario.

When you flat you 1) don't bloat a pot with the best hand in poker 2) don't go heads up in position vs. a whale 3) allow potentially 2 other villains in with position on you in a smaller pot. Remember people make less mistakes in position and realize their hand's equity more in position. People also play more straightforward in multiway pots. All of which is bad for us.

A lot of players are opting to 5-bet to a sizing that is committing versus BTN, so I'm interested to learn how everyone expects BTN to respond to our adjustment to fish's range, and what our range plan is versus a BTN jam and fish call. Are we just overjamming our entire 5-bet range? If not, it seems like our flatting range would be put in some questionable spots.

The more I read this forum, the more I realize the only people who post in it are complete idiots. I mean, how can anyone justify calling this combo on the river as played? We block BOTH A8s. Not to mention the irony of everyone berating the OP for flatting the 4-bet when it's unlikely those same posters have any clue how to respond to either adjustive Villain(s) ON THE VERY NEXT NODE. With fish's dead money I wouldn't be surprised if a minimum 5-bet is committing versus BTN here. I don't usually go off like this, but boy, the level of clueless hubris in this place is something else.

Couldn't agree more.

Personally, Id be more concerned with the cocktail waitress's reaction to my 5b than the button's reaction.

Will she think I'm cool? Will she be impressed by how I roll the last $100 off my hand into my (announced) raise? Does she want kids?

These are the things I'd be thinking about as I 5bet an incredibly unbalanced bad player with likely zero fold equity that I have position on with AA one trillion bbs deep. I certainly wouldn't be thinking about nodes.

Really not sure what trembling's talking about. Pre is a fairly clear 5-bet to a size that isn't committing at all vs the maniac, one that he will be likely to call with the majority of his range. As far as dealing with the 1k deep reg, that's a small rock when we're talking about 5k deep vs this 100bb/hour loser. I wouldn't be surprised if we're just 5-betting our whole continue range here and reluctantly calling it off for 1k when he wakes up with a hand. But even if you're splitting off a coldcalling range, I have scant interest in blowing dozens of bb of value with this hand for the sake of balance.

And the river is a very simple call. Pretty much a fistpump. You beat worse for value, you beat the busted open-ender, and you beat busted diamonds. You also beat whatever total airball that Ronald McDonald decided to punt 2200 with on this pretty scary runout.

The biggest tragedy of this hand is that you didn't get the whole effective stack in the middle. Aside from not 5-betting pre, you probably should have 3-bet the turn as played. It ensures you stack overpairs every time, and I think many of his bluffing hands are 8+ out draws. Ripping it in on the turn against those is probably worth more than allowing them to bluff river.

theres actually some pretty dec players that post here
a8s blockers dont mean anything here really tbh
the reason you call this combo is that it is literally the best hand in your range and its not a good thing to fold the best hand you can possibly have
wtf are you talking about w nodes
() min 5 bet is committing
overall a pretty bad post imo

I agree with 5 betting pre.

What`s your 5bet size? 475ish?

Are you arguing that Hero should fold because he blocks value hands that beat him?

card removal effects for 8x combos are not an issue in this hand
dude has no idea what hes talking about imo

lol wat.

Who is thinking about folding the river??? Obviously I meant shove, I'm shocked even Renton makes 50 BB snap-mistake. The guy could have 76 and look us up. Are there that many cowards pissing away up to 130 BB (yes, a WHOLE buy-in) here? I was going to CREV preflop but I'm not sure if I should even bother anymore.

I think you're a favorite vs his range including bluffs, but probably behind the range that bet calls for the rest. It seems too thin.

Yup...

No FPS, i keep forgetting to remind myself of this as well NO FPS just take the highest EV line and that stacks are pretty deep as well vs. a LAG so i don't think we are getting any folds

Are you being serious here? I haven't done work, but I'd imagine as-played Hero range preflop to contain some of KK+, 77-, suited broadways, good suited connectors, in varying weights - things we would call a 3-bet versus a normal opponent but heavier on the components that block a BTN 5-bet jam. Villain's leak must give him full weight on probably 88+, AJo+, KQo, ATs+, KJs-KQs, all but one of which we beat here. After this his next heaviest hand should be Axs for obvious reasons, followed by trace amounts of suited kings, connectors and gappers. I'm sure you're familiar that with this SPR optimal turn check-raise frequency is around 20%, with most weighting on overpairs, A8s, other trace 8x, and some turned draws (much of which needs to check flop). Of course, all this assumes Villain diverges from equilibrium in a roughly uniform way with various range components, but without player- or population-specific compositional reads (usually extremely hard to obtain in an unbiased way), what better assumption is there to make? I'm generally sceptical of live reads, but I find outright disbelievable the idea that even your shove sample versus distribution of as-described players in analogous spots is large enough to rely on.

I have little clue what any other posters are thinking about, but the only discussion-worthy decisions in this hand are river (shove or call) and preflop sizing, neither of which appears to have been expounded on in the preceding 40 posts.

*Dabs*

I generally agree with 5 betting pre. And in a normal game, other players should perceive your range as pretty damn narrow whether you call the 4 bet or 5 bet.

All that said, I have played in games where 4 betting is the best play. If the first players to act pre are tighter and have smaller stacks, and the last players to act are looser and deeper, then sometimes flatting will induce a shove by a shorter stack up front with hands like QQ and AK, whereas a 5 bet will induce a fold.

The way you described villain, he will play KK and QQ like this often enough, and will also show up with complete air sometimes. Close your eyes and snap call call.