I remember when I first got turned on to 2+2 I would look at post counts and see them in the thousands. I assumed that if you had that many posts, you must know what you’re talking about. Now, it is true that more posts usually equals more experience, but let me tell you something: This is post #5000 and I still feel like I don’t know much of anything.

In the spirit of milestone posts, however, I’ll try to do something that’s at least somewhat beneficial to some folks. Others can just read and be amused. My #2000 post was similar in that I don’t feel totally qualified to give earth shattering strategy advice. I’m currently working with CallmeVernon on a project that should be out later, but as for take it to the bank wisdom, you won’t find it here.

What can I give you? I can give you the observations of someone who started logging serious hours in LLSNL about two years ago. I started out as a donk because I’d been playing online micros for a couple years before that. I transitioned into nithood. Today, I can’t really pinpoint my “style” other than I look for spots and attack. Some days that means I border on the maniacal. Other days it means I sit there and sip a coke for 4 hours while waiting for a value hand. “It depends.” What I do know is that I have long term results to back up my play so it has to be worth something. I’m going to try to just list a few observations that I’ve made that can help players with potential turn into players with bank rolls.

1. Image

I see a lot of players on 2+2 say, “I’m LAG. I’m TAG. Etc. This is a really good indicator for me of where you are in your evolution as a player. Generally speaking, if you describe yourself as TAG, that tells me that you aren’t crazy. You think you’re solid, but you probably don’t know how to adjust when no one at the table is handing away fistfuls of cash. If you describe yourself as LAG, it tells me you probably have an ego problem, overvalue your post flop skills, and think you can just dominate everyone at the table regardless of cards and position.
Not everyone who describes themselves this way will fall into my assumptions, but a lot of them will. One thing I noticed about the really great posters here is that they hardly ever label themselves. Instead, they’ll tell you what they’ve been doing during this session leading up to this hand. That’s because they’re capable of playing in whatever way is profitable. It’s OK if you’re not there yet, but that’s what you should be striving for. Learn to adapt. Learn to swallow your pride at the table and play in whatever way is required to acquire chips.

2. Position

We all say we understand it, but then I see 100 HH/week about someone calling a raise in MP with 67ss. Get it into your heads. Position is king. No position. No play. Be truly tight from the blinds. Don’t call raises OOP. Do all the things the books tell you to do. They really do work. I’m going to leave this one alone for now.

3. Target Practice

This ties in with #1. To illustrate it, I’ll give you two examples.

A) J-Dud is a young cocky reg in my room. He said not too long ago that the only thing keeping him from playing nose bleeds in Vegas was money, and that he’d put his game up against anyone in the world. He was serious. Young J-Dud is an atrocious player. He’s not terrible because he has no potential however. He just can’t get over himself. He calls everyone around him a donkey and then plays like a donkey because he thinks he can somehow magically win with crap in bad spots. J-Dud seeks out tough tables and tough players because “they’re the only ones who challenge me.” Do you see why J-Dud will never ever be even a break even player? He purposefully puts himself in bad spots against good players.

B) I’m going to give you my routine. I decide where the easiest game in town is likely to be that night and I go there. Once there, I look for the juiciest table and if possible I go there. Once at the table, I glance around for known fish and big stacks and I plop myself down directly to their left. Once in my seat, I watch like a hawk. Within 5-10 minutes, I know where my money is likely to come from and I target those players as much as possible. For the rest, I identify leaks (usually many) and attack those when the opportunity arises, but it’s the weak players I’m after. If there are competent players at the table, I try to avoid them. Even if they’re not as good as me, I’m not looking to tangle with them for the thrill of competition. My thrill comes from stacking mountains of chips. When conditions/players/stacks change, so do I. I am a seat change monkey. In a 4 hour session, I will move 2-3x on average. It’s a free advantage and it makes no sense not to use it. Don’t let your ego cut your win rate.

I feel like I could write my own book on a lot of this stuff, but then I’d have to charge for it and feel bad when no one bought it. So, I’ll stop here. If anyone would like to add to my list of tips for growing players, feel free. I’m no guru.

Thanks for the post. I don't table change nearly as much as I should (hardly ever) and seat change very sporadically as well. The other night I had two aggressive players to my left and found myself down $100 pretty early on ($1/2 NL). Changed seats to their immediate left and was back to even in no time.

The one thing I really don't like is when someone wins a big hand and immediately changes tables. Really leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Agree with all your points.

The table dynamics, my run of cards, my position, and the immediate situation at hand all affect my image / style / play.

What's higher in rank than a King? Whatever that is, that's position, in my opinion. So much easier to get paid off in position (did he bet because he has a hand, or because I checked to him?). So much easier to chase a drawing hand in position (where you can usually get a good idea of what everyone is doing when in late position). So much easier to make plays at small pots with mediocre hands / air. And really important in hands where pot control is key (where it is very difficult to check the turn behind if we're OOP).

And +1 to targetting the easy money, not intentionally tangling with the difficult money, seat changing, table changing, etc. And of course leaving our ego / sense of entitlement at the door (the one problem I probably struggle with the most).

Gcongratson5000posts,youpostingwhoreG

1. is really important IMO. you really shouldn't be loose or tight in a vacuum. you should play tight vs loose and loose vs tight and shouldn't adhere to any particular "style". just take what the table gives you

I've seen a lot of J-Duds. They usually have friends that crush at poker and think they are good because their friends are trying to learn them, lol. I saw one of them the other night berating an old lady for a fairly standard play.

As soon as I figure out where you live, I'm going to come there and V describe the **** out of you.

Ha, awesome, I look forward to it!

GbestvillaindescriptionsevarG

We have different goals when it comes to LLSNL. I have played in bigger games before and had mild success, but with lack of time and new job, I have lost touch with how the game has evolved in the last few years in bigger games. I play the lower levels to learn how to beat the lower levels and be able to grow to feel comfortable taking shots at larger games.

Sure game selection is a factor in every level of poker. You see a fish, you exploit the fish. Making money is the priority, fish give you the best chance to make money. Lets face it though, playing in a 1/2-1/3 game for a living is not something I would ever intend to do nor is there enough time in a day to make it nearly profitable enough to live comfortably.

My feeling is LLSNL is where you cut your teeth, I think this is an obvious truth. Sure, as a thinking player (and I'm assuming you are atleast semi-thinking if you are reading this) thats more then 75% of the people at these tables and I think in the long run money will be made inevitably. However, getting in uncomfortable positions whether against fish or capable players is part of growth. Ego is one thing, being confident you can beat (play optimal) at any LLSNL you sit at, is what I try and make sure to do.

Money comes and money goes, but by looking for tables only where you sit to the left of fish is hindering your ability to be able to make it to the next level. In the higher limits, the 'fish' filled games will be tough to get a seat at, but when one opens up it will be a lot easier to adjust and profit the most when you know how to play against the fish both in and out of position.

Great post Spike.

Good post, as usual.

#1: I've noticed similar, especially with the "Hero's image is XXX". A lot of time V's aren't paying enough attention to from such an image, or even know what a TAG image would be. It's projection. I also find it pretty amusing when there are descriptions like that followed by "The villain just sat down 4 hands ago".

#2: Amen to this.

#3A: I love playing with J-Dud when he starts getting all worked up and throwing chips around. If I could tag players with radio transmitters like they tag bears he'd be near the top of my list.

#3B: "Piranhas don't eat each other." I've watched so many players make the mistake you mention and attack what's clearly the best player at the table. Sometimes it's frustrating to watch as they give their chips away to the guy that's going to be hardest for me to extract chips from, for exactly the reason you mention, I don't want to tangle with a tough spot if I can stack a mountain from a weak player.


You bring up an interesting point about table and seat changing. It becomes a little more interesting when there are multiple marks at the table. Say you've got two players approximately across the table from each other ... do you try to get position on one in particular base on their stack sizes? Consider it a wash and not bother moving? I'd guess the answer would be (as always) "it depends" on what the specific leaks we're trying to exploit are.


Any opinion on the benefit of relative position (sitting to the immediate right of) on a maniac?
The debate has come up in threads from time to time, and the community is pretty split on it.
Being first to act after the maniac (normal position) is nice in that we can attempt to isolate him when he raises, and hold the advantage post-flop, but it costs us more when another player at the table wakes up with a big hand and calls or 4-bets us. While relative position gives us the chance to raise after the maniac's common PFR with a lot of potentially dead money in the pot from callers, or to call the maniac light when everyone folds ... it makes playing post-flop more difficult and sometimes leads to multi-way massively bloated pots.

I feel like the biggest factors are the effective stack sizes that the V is betting and the likelihood that anyone else at the table will play back at him/us without a super premium hand.

Great post Spike. One quick comment:

I love seat changing as much as anyone else, but if one seat is just "slightly" better than another, and you just changed seats, it can be intimidating to some of the regs especially. I would maybe stay put in a spot where it's only SLIGHTLY more advantageous because as you move up the stakes people notice who looks for seat changes often. I am speaking in regards to $2/5 and above. Keep in mind I am only speaking of instances where you recently switched seats and you spot a slightly better seat.

Angrist- foreshadowing my next project. The more I dig in the more I want to say and that just won't do. Luckily, Vern is a minimalist.

P4ms- I can totally buy that. I don't advocate moving every few minutes. When an obvious move spot occurs however, you've GOT to take it. It's throwing money away not to. And at my levels, the hopping around is pretty easy to explain away since they totally get that my current seat is card dead.

Comment adding onto #1 - what you think your own playing style is, is not as important as how other players perceive you.

I've always wondered about this. During a hand history, when H describes him/herself as a TAG, is it a self-esteem thing because TAG is perceived generally as the optimum style of playing, and anything else would make H out to be a less competent player to the 2+2 community? Or, is TAG really H's projected image at that particular time during the session, because H has not been playing many hands and won most of his pots without a showdown? If it's the latter, then using TAG is a good shorthand way to sum up H's image, and we can accordingly assess V's play in response to that image. If not, then OP's point applies.


Edit:
Oh and adding a funny observation to the point about seat changes: a lot more seat changes in LLSNL are definitely card-dead/losing players scrambling for a "lucky/hot" seat right after a big stack leaves (whether they were actually lucky or were just playing good). It's annoying because you end up competing for seats, but for different reasons.

Grunching a bit, re: changing tables. What are some thoughts on balancing multiple table changes to attack juicy tables vs. time needed to adjust to a new table? Assume a 5-hr session.

Great post, nice points. If you are playing for the challenge by all means seek out tough opponents. If your primary goals is winning the most $/hr selecting the softest tables and the best seat once you get to that table is absolutely essential and a highly underated skill.

Table changing: I don't really table change nearly as much as I seat change. If there's an obvious advantage at another table I'll go. Where I play a lot of times, it's just the difference between 2 tables, so it's pretty easy to figure out which one is better. Most of my movement is done at one table. I don't go crazy with it, like every 15 minutes or something, but I will generally move a couple times a session as fish come and go. It usually only takes me 15-20 minutes to get a decent read on my table so as long as the advantage is high, I'll take the move.

Challenging competition: There is a false dichotomy between seeking out soft games, and learning to play vs. better competition. No game is ever going to be devoid of somewhat better players. You're going to find yourself in plenty of spots vs. nondroolers even as you target the fish. And the greater, more profitable skill will always be maximizing potential EV. That's true across all limits and player pools. I think it's a really bad habit to get into when you start passing up profit to improve. Learning to absolutely dominate weaker players is THE skill that will move you up the ladder. I'd rather adjust to slightly better players at 2/5 with the roll I built decimating 1/2 fish then toiling away in a rock garden "to prepare for the jump."

Great post and congrats on 5k. These are all great pieces of advice, there really is no merit in reg wars and thinking of LLSNL as a way to grind your teeth rather than a way to grind out $20-30/hr really resonates with me.

Quite frankly, my time away from the table is worth more than that, so if I don't use my time playing at these stakes as a natural progression to at least grinding 5/T regularly (hopefully by the end of the year) then, personally, I need to reevaluate what I am doing.