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5/5 Are we just folding a full house here in this 3bet pot? 5/5 Are we just folding a full house here in this 3bet pot?

10-07-2024 , 05:34 PM
Reads on V: MAWG rec, doesn't open wide, has a limping range in all positions. The kind of guy that 3bets AK and checks back an A high flop as a trap. I have seen him call my open and raise a raggedy flop without picture cards with 66 (maybe 66 was an overpair, can't remember) and then bet a blank turn after I called the flop. Still not sure if that was a bluff or a valuebet. I sort of read him correctly at the time as not having that much, but I made the apparent error of calling with AK high. I hadn’t played much with him yet at the time. River he checked behind and I felt kind of stupid. I have also seen him limp/call QQ/KK on multiple occasions, although I don’t think he does that 100 percent of the time. I've also seen him 3bet AQ for instance, so he’s not necessarily passive. In general I often just can’t really make out what he's doing or trying to do, but just like almost every other villain, I'm (kind of?) sure he always has value when the real money is going in.

Reads are important here, and maybe this is even the kind of hand (and the kind of villain) where it's just simply up to hero to make a decision and you guys can't really help me out, but who knows. Anyway, on to the hand.

V (1100) UTG 20, one caller in MP, H (covers) in LP 3bets TdTh to 80, only V calls (I mix 3bet and flat here with TT, which is okay I guess?)

Heads-up to the flop (190) AcJcTc

Ch/ch

Turn (190) AcJcTc Jh

Ch, H 100, V raises to 320

I'm open to suggestions here, but I called. Already alarm bells were ringing, but what else can we do?

River (830) AcJcTc Jh 4s

V shoves for 700

I'm not in the habit of folding full houses on flush boards in 3bet pots, but I can’t think of much that we beat here. Are we ever good? Mind you, I think this guy is perfectly "capable" of flatting AA pre-flop here to my 3bet, so I'm certainly not discounting aces full. We lose to AA, AJs, JJ, JTs and KcQc. Not many combos, but what are we even beating? Spaz? KJs/QJs? KQ? I consider all of this kind of spazzy too. I doubt he has any flushes other than a royal flush, because is he really raise/calling 87s pre? I feel he would limp or fold those.

It sort of felt like an "easy" fold for me on the river, but that is also very counterintuitive when you're holding a boat, so it wasn’t that easy after all, I guess.
5/5 Are we just folding a full house here in this 3bet pot? Quote
10-07-2024 , 07:03 PM
Preflop is good.

Raise the flop to 70. Fold to shove.

AP, on the turn, it sucks to call. I suck enough at poker to call.

AP, on the river, puke fold, puke call. Whatever your delight.
5/5 Are we just folding a full house here in this 3bet pot? Quote
10-07-2024 , 07:28 PM
****s sake bet the flop. I dont even think the turn or river is relevant after such a disaster flop check.
5/5 Are we just folding a full house here in this 3bet pot? Quote
10-07-2024 , 08:32 PM
You’re calling turn to call a jam on the river so call. Probably the biggest mistake I see in these threads is someone calls a large turn bet, river changes nothing and they don’t know what to do against a large river bet. Each street doesn’t happen in a vacuum if villain bets a size that sets up a river shove you should be expecting the river shove to come.
5/5 Are we just folding a full house here in this 3bet pot? Quote
10-07-2024 , 08:51 PM
I like the fact that you notice that villain is the kind of guy who 3bets with AK, then checks Ax board... and you then go check flop in which you flopped set.

Given villain's description and the nature of ranges involved in this spot, villain shouldn't have many flushes, so you aren't as concerned with pot controlling your set. Moreover, the set is an excellent merge hand that bets for both value and as a semibluff.

The only flush hand villain can realistically have here is KcQc, since I don't think he raise/calls with suited connectors a lot - althogh to be fair some recs like to limp their value hands and raise call stuff like this. But if his range is linear, he should basically have one flush combo. So, given that he has a ton of AK and Ax in general, this is a mandatory cbet.

On the river, it's a judgement call and it depends on whether he's capable of overplaying his AxKc hands or have random spazz in his range. Given that his value range is 8 combos and you only need him to have another 3 hands that you beat, its tough to fold this.
5/5 Are we just folding a full house here in this 3bet pot? Quote
10-07-2024 , 08:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PugDolk
You’re calling turn to call a jam on the river so call. Probably the biggest mistake I see in these threads is someone calls a large turn bet, river changes nothing and they don’t know what to do against a large river bet. Each street doesn’t happen in a vacuum if villain bets a size that sets up a river shove you should be expecting the river shove to come.
This is precisely wrong. A board might not change, but it matters that villain chose to continue and not check. People aren't supposed to bet 100 of their turn range on the river, so if they do so, this means that their range is stronger. Some hands can call one bet, but not two, it happens.

You are never committed to call on the river just because you called on the turn.
5/5 Are we just folding a full house here in this 3bet pot? Quote
10-07-2024 , 09:20 PM
V canÂ’t have AxK/Qc here?
5/5 Are we just folding a full house here in this 3bet pot? Quote
10-07-2024 , 10:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OvertlySexual
This is precisely wrong. A board might not change, but it matters that villain chose to continue and not check. People aren't supposed to bet 100 of their turn range on the river, so if they do so, this means that their range is stronger. Some hands can call one bet, but not two, it happens.

You are never committed to call on the river just because you called on the turn.
there's a difference between a 10bb bet on the turn and a 23bb bet on the river and a turn bet that was setting up a river jam and then seeing that happen. if you don't want to call the river jam, don't call the turn bet. the entire decision point in this hand is on the turn.
5/5 Are we just folding a full house here in this 3bet pot? Quote
10-07-2024 , 11:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomark
****s sake bet the flop. I dont even think the turn or river is relevant after such a disaster flop check.
Yeah. A check here is a disaster. He has a ton of worse hands that can continue, and you are giving a free card to a ton of hands that could catch you.

Having checked this flop, I don't think you can fold to a CR on the turn. From his POV, you could easily be taking a stab after you wiffed but he checked 2x. Or you could have like Ah2h or something that just wants a little protection but must fold to a cr.

River fold is OK. He might have some 44, but sounds like he limps that. Might have some losing flushes. Probably few to zero bluffs. Call could be OK too. Go w/ your read.
5/5 Are we just folding a full house here in this 3bet pot? Quote
10-08-2024 , 02:05 AM
flop is nowhere close to range bet and this is checked signif more often than our range fwiw. tbh it checks turn some % with your hand too which i find an interesting option.

i would not call down with your hand vs described villain (maybe vs anyone tbh, at equilibrium in 150bb sim its pretty close to 0ev river call and i mostly doubt it would be that close in practice) although man i have no idea what u lose to. this would not be a time i'd be curious enough to find out
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10-08-2024 , 04:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by submersible
flop is nowhere close to range bet and this is checked signif more often than our range fwiw. tbh it checks turn some % with your hand too which i find an interesting option.

i would not call down with your hand vs described villain (maybe vs anyone tbh, at equilibrium in 150bb sim its pretty close to 0ev river call and i mostly doubt it would be that close in practice) although man i have no idea what u lose to. this would not be a time i'd be curious enough to find out
A 3bet pot in which we have all sets, more flushes, all straights, the strongest top pairs, this isn't a range bet?
5/5 Are we just folding a full house here in this 3bet pot? Quote
10-08-2024 , 05:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OvertlySexual
A 3bet pot in which we have all sets, more flushes, all straights, the strongest top pairs, this isn't a range bet?
not when we squeeze utg at this spr. utg supposed to be very tight here, like 3% of hands bc hes sandwiched. hes maybe tighter bc the game is 9 handed and im just looking at 6 handed solve. sim says b20-33 50% and x 50%. it wants to x tt 70% of the time.

even rainbow at 150 ip isnt supposed to range bet. will utg be looser than he should be in the sim? im not really sure. op says he limp calls qq and kk and might not 4b aa lol. was a bit surprising to me too, am used to 2+ bw boards being range bet but i think that just changes as we get beyond 100bb in general.

if it makes u feel better i think you're right re what you said about facing turn and river bets earlier in the thread just don't have the heart to reply to it and start another argument

Last edited by submersible; 10-08-2024 at 05:14 AM.
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10-08-2024 , 07:13 AM
I really would like to know more about V. I think the UTG open is our most likely best attempt to get set a range on him. Imo I don't see V opening UTG with J10suited, and based on the runout there really is only one combo of the suited variety left JTss. Also are many V's opening Ajs or AJo UTG in your games?

Would V take this line with Akc or Aqc?

Also table dynamics are important too. Is there a lot of 3b going on pre or raising going on pre? Is V the type to go the l/rr route with AA? Is he the type to open with K9cc or Q9cc? What is he view on you? Also a player description may also be helpful.

As others have mentioned the turn xr size is worrisome. He clearly is attempting to set up a river jam with that sizing so he must be relatively competent to think that far through...

Idk im not good enough to make the fold on the river once I called the turn.
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10-08-2024 , 08:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PugDolk
there's a difference between a 10bb bet on the turn and a 23bb bet on the river and a turn bet that was setting up a river jam and then seeing that happen. if you don't want to call the river jam, don't call the turn bet. the entire decision point in this hand is on the turn.
Yeah so i dont disagree against described villain, but obviously this strategy can be exploited by Vs who give up their bluffs and weaker made hands OTR. I think this particular advice is handed out far too freely, and is exactly why turn bluffs is so key to exploiting the stronger players in the game.

What i will say is although he likely isnt bluffing turn/giving up river, he might value bet turn and check for pot control on river with straight/flush/trips, so maybe you can call turn fold river on this specific board, but i probably dont think thats the strongest line and id also sorta irrelevant with flop check that shouldnt have happened
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10-08-2024 , 12:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perrone66
I really would like to know more about V. I think the UTG open is our most likely best attempt to get set a range on him. Imo I don't see V opening UTG with J10suited, and based on the runout there really is only one combo of the suited variety left JTss. Also are many V's opening Ajs or AJo UTG in your games?

Would V take this line with Akc or Aqc?

Also table dynamics are important too. Is there a lot of 3b going on pre or raising going on pre? Is V the type to go the l/rr route with AA? Is he the type to open with K9cc or Q9cc? What is he view on you? Also a player description may also be helpful.

As others have mentioned the turn xr size is worrisome. He clearly is attempting to set up a river jam with that sizing so he must be relatively competent to think that far through...

Idk im not good enough to make the fold on the river once I called the turn.
Most of these questions I'm gonna have to answer with "I don't know", because I've seen him do a lot of things that seem to contradict themselves. I could see him open suited broadways UTG, offsuit lower than AK/AQ I'm not sure. Those might be limps. I could see him raise the turn with Jx that isn't a full house and maaaaaaybe AKc/AQc (I wouldn't bet on it; I don't think it's likely and I doubt he's [particularly] aware of the existence of blockers), but I'm not so sure he would shove the river. I mean, I can have all the boats, quads and some flushes. I would flat all of those on the turn and I don't think he can be sure that I will fold any of those hands. But like I said, this guy is still a bit of a mystery to me...

Our table broke 15 minutes earlier and we were moved to the other table, so I don't know much about the dynamic at the time. With AA I think he can take all available routes, limp/call, raise/call, raise/4bet, you name it. And with K9cc/Q9cc I would sooner expect limps or folds UTG than raise.
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10-08-2024 , 12:19 PM
By the way, I've never agreed with the "you called turn, so you have to call a blank river" theories. I have seen many people - including myself - try to make a move on the turn with some sort of bluff (or maybe with some sort of "protection raise") and then chicken out (or go for pot control) on the river after they get called. So no, I don't think a turn call automatically means you have to call the river too. In my experience, the likelihood of this being a bluff is generally lower on the river than on the turn in hands like this.
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10-08-2024 , 01:35 PM
I am calling the river. Too many people are capable of semi-bluff raise this turn with the nut flush draw, and with <one pot size bet left they have to shove the river.

Your villain's image aside, your image is also important. I am a big target for bluffy people so I am not folding this one.
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10-08-2024 , 09:44 PM
I would call river. V is erratic. I think he could be capable of value jamming worse. Flushes, straights, Jx.
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10-08-2024 , 10:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homey D. Clown
By the way, I've never agreed with the "you called turn, so you have to call a blank river" theories. I have seen many people - including myself - try to make a move on the turn with some sort of bluff (or maybe with some sort of "protection raise") and then chicken out (or go for pot control) on the river after they get called. So no, I don't think a turn call automatically means you have to call the river too. In my experience, the likelihood of this being a bluff is generally lower on the river than on the turn in hands like this.
Sammy Farha waves hands frantically.

And yeah, Im not thrilled about it but I call the river.

Last edited by BullyEyelash; 10-08-2024 at 10:17 PM. Reason: CouldnÂ’t bear to fold and see V turn over KcJx
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10-08-2024 , 10:12 PM
The fact that you checked the flop makes it an easier call. There’s a certain archetype that loves attacking perceived capped ranges. Maybe this guy fits the description.

The other possibility is he has Jx/Flush and is over valuing his hand. A lot of fish do this because they don’t understand absolute value vs relative value.

Or he just has quads/AJ/AA and you lose but I think the first two scenarios are much more likely. You need to be good like 30% of the time so pretty easy call imo.

I forgot about 44 as well which again makes it a call.

Interested in results.

Last edited by DooDooPoker; 10-08-2024 at 10:21 PM.
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10-09-2024 , 03:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DooDooPoker
The fact that you checked the flop makes it an easier call. There’s a certain archetype that loves attacking perceived capped ranges. Maybe this guy fits the description.

The other possibility is he has Jx/Flush and is over valuing his hand. A lot of fish do this because they don’t understand absolute value vs relative value.

Or he just has quads/AJ/AA and you lose but I think the first two scenarios are much more likely. You need to be good like 30% of the time so pretty easy call imo.

I forgot about 44 as well which again makes it a call.

Interested in results.
Result is I folded. I did tell him that I folded a full house, without showing my hand (so I could still be lying), but that didn’t have the desired outcome; in other words, he didn’t show his hand.

By the way, I think a flush is hardly in his range, if at all, but the chances of him having 44 would seem almost immeasurably small. So small that I can't imagine it should be a factor in my decision.
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10-09-2024 , 05:18 AM
Folding the river and then telling V what you had hoping he’ll tell you what he had is a weak move I’ve done too many times, and in my case it’s always been a sign that I should’ve called.

And also a sign I played the hand poorly earlier, usually by not betting or raising.
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10-09-2024 , 06:48 AM
I think given your line you just have to call down. You said villain is usually showing up with “it” in big pots but does he ever possibly think a hand like AxKc or trips is having it? Most people won’t just go open folding KJs/QJs even UTG so those hands are probably in range. If he has a royal flush or slow played AA pre-flop so be it the most realistic hand youre losing to is AJ and who knows if the offsuit combos are even in range.
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10-09-2024 , 09:59 AM
Problem is you beat some of the value hands. There's the chance he has a hand like KQ, Jx, Kc9c/9c8c for value. For bluffs he could turn something like QcQx/KTs/QTs into a bluff. This guy sounds like he's an FPS player, so I could see him having more bluffs/mergy value than most players.
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