I got into an argument with a friend about this hand and would like to get a second opinion.

Home game with 9 players.

Hero BB - I haven't been involved in many hands tonight and perceived as a very tight player.

V1 UTG - Maniac player, will call any raise amount and seen him shove pre for 200-300bbs with ATC.

V2 BU - Loose fish, down around 3-4 buyins this session in less than 2 hours and is on massive tilt. Just lost a big hand and has started to open just about every hand.

1250 eff

UTG bets blind 100, folds to button who goes all in for 425. I have Ac 10c in BB and decide to flat.

I was thinking of either folding or calling, by calling I figured I would get UTG to come along and was sure he would try to bluff his entire range after I check the flop and set a trap to take his entire stack.

My friend was telling me that I was not deep enough to make this call and instead it's a close decision between folding and raising. He said by raising it allows me to isolate V2 to get it heads up with the included dead money from UTG and isn't worried about a random hand being stronger than A 10s.

I still believed I played the hand completely standard but would like others thoughts on this. Thanks.

Would you call the button shove if V1 was not involved? Just because V1 will shove ATC or call any raise doesn't mean he is automatically going to call your 4!, and if he does do something like shove you still have to play ATcc vs two players ranges. Seems thin to me at best.

No, your friend is right. It's a fold or reshove. Calling is the worst option. Calling is not completely standard.

this is a shove or a fold. You can't call 1/3 of your stack with A high decent kicker. If you're playing this hand you need to see all five cards. Frankly IMO it's a pretty standard fold unless V2 is an absolute maniac. You're never meaningfully ahead (hard to see v3 with worse aces) and V2 is uncapped so you're often way behind.

I don't get it. so you are calling a shove on the flop no matter what? Even if you whiff? you know you don't have aces, right?

And how are you not deep enough to make this call? the deeper you are, the more of a mistake it is to flat pre and price the LAG in. if you and the LAG were 2500 deep, you flatted, and the pot was 1275 pre, and then you whiff, there is no way that you can call a shove on the flop.

as played, I don't mind just flatting to induce the LAG to come along, there is a very good chance that he might do something silly and shove into you when you have him dominated. But, the higher ROI play is to shove and get the short stack heads up. Too many times you are going to whiff the flop and just end up donating 425 to one of these knuckleheads.

lol I wanna play this home game.

Range wise, shove >= fold > call

Call is the worst option.

Given the dynamics, V2's range is pretty wide.

V2 can have 22+, all broadway cards to gamble, maybe A2s+ ATo+ As those range are pretty good against a blind bet 100 range but V2 is too short to flat pre 25% of chips pre. V2 is a loose tilted fish.


ATs is pretty good against V2's range.

If that's you're range for him then you should shove. I will say though you're the only 52.5% against that range. If you remove the worst broadway cards like JTo-KTo you're 50/50, and doing worse as you remove the worse AXs hands. So if that your That's a wide shoving range.

If this is true, what is the point in waiting until the flop to get it in? Are there flops you plan on folding? Are there flops he won't bet?

Folding > Shoving > Calling

You chose the worst option. You've got multiple players to act behind and you're going to be dominated by V2 just as often as you're dominating him. And what's your plan if someone other than V1 shoves over the top? Are you going to fold after you've just put 1/3 of your stack in preflop? And if V1 flats preflop then shoves flop, he's going to have weak pairs a lot of the time that need "protection". Why would he bluff shove a locked pot? Don't act like you're the one trapping him when you have nothing more than Ace high. This is a clear shove/fold spot.

Jam if you feel like playing on the high variance side of the game.

Fold if you feel like playing a safer spot since those two are throwing chips around.

Call is by far the worst option and definitely not standard.

my2¢

When you are 52% against V2 with 100 dead money from V1, that is pretty + EV.

If V1 does not fold and call with crappy, that is even better.

This is a lot of high variance though.

Agreed, if the range for V2 is right this is a shove, which is what I said. However, in my view the range is pretty optimistic and even then we're only 52% against it, and it's the weakest part of the range, which we dominate, that's giving us our EV. V2 is really shoving all combos of A2s-A9s here? He's shoving JTo or QTo or 33? So if we've made a ranging mistake here and V2 is tighter than expected, we're going to get it in bad here. For instance, if V2 is shoving with top 10% hands, which is about what I'd expect in a vacuum, we're 43% to win. Now that's OK if V1 folds when we shove, but when V1 calls we're almost certainly in a ton of trouble. It's just a very thin spot to give V1 an option on our whole stack.

Another important factor is if you are playing live full time or just recreationally the swings from getting it in over and over in 52/48 spots are going to be huge. To want to get allin here with ATcc in a spot where we are 52%ish at best is to say you are ok with calling an opponents allin after he shows you AK when you hold 22, for stacks, over and over. Long run, marginally profitable, short run probably lots of -EV when you whiff and your play degrades due to tilt.

Personally I think calling this size is always bad unless you have JJ+, AQo+, and you should be shoving 88+, AJo+ but I prefer lower variance especially playing with maniacs who will give me plenty of spots to stack them with more equity.

This. And by reshove he means fold. Always.

you are giving V2 far far FAR too much credit for the strength of their range. When dudes go tilted like this, they are shoving junk as weak as T8 suited.

What would you do in V2's spot when you look down at A7o? You'd trip over yourself trying to get your chips in. A tilted spewtard is jamming all Ax here.

This range is still too tight. V2 can have any Ax, any pair, any two broadways, any good connectors, and who knows what else.

It's not optimistic for the described villain. I don't understand.

This. Also, T8s is junk? I am probably shoving it in V2's spot, too, and I am not a tilted spewtard. It's probably not a +EV shove against optimal players, but I expect V1 to call too much of his range (as in all of it), and SB/BB to overfold. I mean, people are actually advocating folding ATs in the BB here.

I would just shove here. V1 might just decide to gamble and come along anyway. By flatting we offer him pretty good pot odds and it's probably correct for him to flat with a pretty wide range hands.

Vs described villains as long as you don't fold you are fine.

-1

I'm folding here. As many of the people before me. Against players described, I'm shoving to isolate as a second option. But I'm not going to punt a 3rd of my stack at minimum preflop with AT suited


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I'm folding, we have AT, not AQ. Tilty fish is playing every hand, not shoving every hand.

If I do play this, I shove. Call is bad, holding QQ would be more interesting to discuss.

To everyone who thinks we should fold.

If you are in V2's spot and you look down at A7o, what is your action?

Now imagine you are the described tilted fish looking down at A7o, what is your action?

Thanks for the input guys, it seems raising here does seem to be a better play.
I will say something that I haven't mentioned though, I was pretty confident that if I 4bet all in pre then BB does call most of the time. Does that change anything?

Here is how the hand played out.
BB calls the 425, Flop 10c 8s 3s. I check, BB bets 300, I go all in and he calls. Turn 5d, River Qd. BU shows Ks Js, BB mucks and I'm good.

this is a fold or shove

You're so wrong lol.