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Old 09-13-2021, 02:21 PM   #1
eric888666
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5/5 NL with KK UTG +1

straddle is on and I make it $50. V 3bets to $120. First time I've played with V and we've been playing for the past 3-4 hours. V doesn't play many hands, maybe 1 hand for every 2 orbits. He complaining he's been card dead. He once 3-bet, then folded to a 4-bet by the Original raiser.

I 4 bet to $350 and then V pushes all in. V had $1,250 behind and I had him covered. so there was $1,600 in the middle and i had to call $900 more.

Hero?
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Old 09-13-2021, 03:10 PM   #2
ledn
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Re: 5/5 NL with KK UTG +1

Dont 4bet/fold KK for effectively 120bb. If you arent comfortable stacking off pre then just flat the 3bet.
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Old 09-13-2021, 03:24 PM   #3
Cosmo K
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Re: 5/5 NL with KK UTG +1

lol, is this for realz???
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Old 09-13-2021, 03:55 PM   #4
411Heelhook
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Re: 5/5 NL with KK UTG +1

What ledn said.

Calling the 3bet is pretty much always a superior line to 4bet/folding KK so if you aren't comfortable getting stacks in, just call his 3bet.
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Old 09-14-2021, 04:16 PM   #5
DalTXColtsFan
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Re: 5/5 NL with KK UTG +1

I'm not sure I like the "If you're not comfortable stacking off with KK just flat the 3-bet" advice. When you 4-bet KK the ONLY hand you're afraid of is AA. He has plenty of AK/AQ/QQ/JJ/TT hands that he would 3-bet and then flat your 4-bet with. Get the money in the middle while you have the best of it and create a really easy post-flop decision with a low SPR.

My advice would be more along the lines of "Decide how you're going to react to a 5-bet BEFORE you 4-bet". (Do what I SAY not what I DO!).

If I'm interpreting the HH correctly, V started the hand with $1370 - isn't that 274 big blinds? Do you EVER see ANY villains put 274 big blind in the pot pre with anything other than AA?

Do you ever see villains 3-bet fold hands like AK/AQ/QQ/JJ/TT?

4-bet-fold seems sensible to me.
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Old 09-15-2021, 12:41 PM   #6
eric888666
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Re: 5/5 NL with KK UTG +1

that's correct - we are both deep with 274 BB effective.

before I 4-bet him, I would snap call his 5-bet with KK...(which is what i did).

V did have AA. My question is if my play above is a leak or does anyone here ever fold KK preflop with 275BB deep?
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Old 09-15-2021, 12:46 PM   #7
411Heelhook
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Re: 5/5 NL with KK UTG +1

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Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
I'm not sure I like the "If you're not comfortable stacking off with KK just flat the 3-bet" advice. When you 4-bet KK the ONLY hand you're afraid of is AA. He has plenty of AK/AQ/QQ/JJ/TT hands that he would 3-bet and then flat your 4-bet with. Get the money in the middle while you have the best of it and create a really easy post-flop decision with a low SPR.

My advice would be more along the lines of "Decide how you're going to react to a 5-bet BEFORE you 4-bet". (Do what I SAY not what I DO!).

If I'm interpreting the HH correctly, V started the hand with $1370 - isn't that 274 big blinds? Do you EVER see ANY villains put 274 big blind in the pot pre with anything other than AA?

Do you ever see villains 3-bet fold hands like AK/AQ/QQ/JJ/TT?

4-bet-fold seems sensible to me.
Straddle is on, effectively 137bb's
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Old 09-15-2021, 12:58 PM   #8
sixsevenoff
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Re: 5/5 NL with KK UTG +1

It's really close. I'm not making this fold, but I get why some would. Deeper I think you have to fold.
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Old 09-15-2021, 01:03 PM   #9
ChaosInEquilibrium
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Re: 5/5 NL with KK UTG +1

I mean, the standard response is going to be: don't fold KK preflop at 125BB effective. It's not very close.

In the future you should really include the positions of players involved in the HH. CO vs BTN or BTN vs SB is very different from UTG vs UTG1. Not that it matters in this case, but still.
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Old 09-15-2021, 01:17 PM   #10
411Heelhook
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Re: 5/5 NL with KK UTG +1

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Originally Posted by ChaosInEquilibrium View Post
I mean, the standard response is going to be: don't fold KK preflop at 125BB effective. It's not very close.

In the future you should really include the positions of players involved in the HH. CO vs BTN or BTN vs SB is very different from UTG vs UTG1. Not that it matters in this case, but still.
I think it matters quite a bit, because kings should be calling the 3b in a lot of scenarios, especially in position.
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Old 09-15-2021, 02:19 PM   #11
ChaosInEquilibrium
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Re: 5/5 NL with KK UTG +1

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Originally Posted by 411Heelhook View Post
I think it matters quite a bit, because kings should be calling the 3b in a lot of scenarios, especially in position.
Our position doesn't matter as much as our opening position (like, BTN open VS BB 3b, I'm never flatting QQ+, even in position), because our opening position is what determines the percentage of hands that opponent can 3bet. Opening position could be a determining factor in whether we decide to 3b with some of the weaker parts of our range. Like in the tightest configuration: we open UTG and UTG+1 3b. I would consider flatting QQ/AKo there. But I'm just never flatting a 3b with a hand as strong as KK, even in the extreme case UTG vs UTG+1.
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Old 09-15-2021, 03:57 PM   #12
411Heelhook
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Re: 5/5 NL with KK UTG +1

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Originally Posted by ChaosInEquilibrium View Post
Our position doesn't matter as much as our opening position (like, BTN open VS BB 3b, I'm never flatting QQ+, even in position), because our opening position is what determines the percentage of hands that opponent can 3bet. Opening position could be a determining factor in whether we decide to 3b with some of the weaker parts of our range. Like in the tightest configuration: we open UTG and UTG+1 3b. I would consider flatting QQ/AKo there. But I'm just never flatting a 3b with a hand as strong as KK, even in the extreme case UTG vs UTG+1.
How about UTG facing a 3bet from SB or BB?
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Old 09-16-2021, 09:34 AM   #13
Bigfoot23
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Re: 5/5 NL with KK UTG +1

Imo, although position and BB stack depth are both important factors, I think the most important factor has been left out by OP:

1. How are you playing?
2. How are you perceived to be playing?

I think depending on your answers above, you do have a case for folding KK.
Since you saw V fold after 3 betting, and complaining he isn’t getting any hands there is a case to be made for AA. V Having KK is very unlikely since you have 2 blockers (however it is possible). I think it’s possible to eliminate QQ after the raising exchange. Is V someone who would fight on preflop with AKs? At this point I don’t believe you have enough equity to make the call for all your stack in the spot if you believe he would re-raise with AA, KK. Only hand your beating is AK if he is ballsy enough to pull that off (I’ve seen it before). Also remember one thing: even if he has AK or QQ you will still lose the pot 20% of the time.

The answer isn’t clear cut. However, if you answer the 2 questions above honestly, you might have a much easier decision than you thought.
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Old 09-16-2021, 11:42 AM   #14
eric888666
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Re: 5/5 NL with KK UTG +1

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosInEquilibrium View Post
I mean, the standard response is going to be: don't fold KK preflop at 125BB effective. It's not very close.

In the future you should really include the positions of players involved in the HH. CO vs BTN or BTN vs SB is very different from UTG vs UTG1. Not that it matters in this case, but still.
I was UTG +1. V was two seats to my left and we are at a 8 handed table. I haven't really thought about BTN vs. SB vs. UTG vs. UTG1 - i'll remember that/start thinking about those dynamics, thanks
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Old 09-16-2021, 11:47 AM   #15
eric888666
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Re: 5/5 NL with KK UTG +1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigfoot23 View Post
Imo, although position and BB stack depth are both important factors, I think the most important factor has been left out by OP:

1. How are you playing?
2. How are you perceived to be playing?

I think depending on your answers above, you do have a case for folding KK.
Since you saw V fold after 3 betting, and complaining he isn’t getting any hands there is a case to be made for AA. V Having KK is very unlikely since you have 2 blockers (however it is possible). I think it’s possible to eliminate QQ after the raising exchange. Is V someone who would fight on preflop with AKs? At this point I don’t believe you have enough equity to make the call for all your stack in the spot if you believe he would re-raise with AA, KK. Only hand your beating is AK if he is ballsy enough to pull that off (I’ve seen it before). Also remember one thing: even if he has AK or QQ you will still lose the pot 20% of the time.

The answer isn’t clear cut. However, if you answer the 2 questions above honestly, you might have a much easier decision than you thought.
#1 - I'm def playing a TAG/NIT style (maybe more closer to NIT). I open raise maybe once every 3-4 orbits. I have never 4bet without AA/KK/AK in my life (is this a leak? I don't think so because with #2 above, I don't give credit for the V's paying attention to me)
#2 - V doesn't know me/this is the 1st time we've played together. IDK if he pays attention to the frequency of my open raises.
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Old 09-16-2021, 05:26 PM   #16
Bigfoot23
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Re: 5/5 NL with KK UTG +1

Not to sound like an ass but..
Based on your response, and after playing for 3-4 hrs with same V, I believe you should have better answers than the answers you gave above in regards to table awareness.
In addition based on your self NIT classification, I think KK in this situation is a pretty standard fold after re-raise. Especially when V to your left is also unaware!
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Old 09-17-2021, 12:45 AM   #17
RobertUCooper
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Re: 5/5 NL with KK UTG +1

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Originally Posted by Bigfoot23 View Post
Not to sound like an ass but..
Based on your response, and after playing for 3-4 hrs with same V, I believe you should have better answers than the answers you gave above in regards to table awareness.
In addition based on your self NIT classification, I think KK in this situation is a pretty standard fold after re-raise. Especially when V to your left is also unaware!
Lololololol, can't tell which of these responses are trolls or not

Its like 130 bigs and you have KK, unless you have insane read (which you don't because the guy just sat down) just stack off, its an easy theoretical (ie GTO) stack-off so don't deviate unless you've seen this guy flat QQ/AK etc. to 4 bets having played with him before

If you want to 4-bet fold QQ fine, 4-bet folding KK is absurd
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Old 09-17-2021, 01:28 AM   #18
JayKon
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Re: 5/5 NL with KK UTG +1

It takes a lot to fold KK pre. I've seen it done and I've only done it once, even knowing I was probably up against AA. So, in absence of countervailing information (which you didn't provide), call.

One time I was up against another KK, other times JJ/QQ/AK, or the feared AA.
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Old 09-18-2021, 06:00 AM   #19
Bigfoot23
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Re: 5/5 NL with KK UTG +1

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Originally Posted by RobertUCooper View Post
Lololololol, can't tell which of these responses are trolls or not

Its like 130 bigs and you have KK, unless you have insane read (which you don't because the guy just sat down) just stack off, its an easy theoretical (ie GTO) stack-off so don't deviate unless you've seen this guy flat QQ/AK etc. to 4 bets having played with him before

If you want to 4-bet fold QQ fine, 4-bet folding KK is absurd
Lol. No troll.
The live game be describes I know all too well.
It’s a boring unimaginative game, that has nearly no raises. Everyone sits on their hands and just limps. In this situation and in this type of game a 4 bet, is a fold with KK.
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