Been playing for about 2 hours at the table when this hand happened. I don't recall all the stacks so I will just write the stacks from players involved in the hand, but we were playing 10 handed at the moment.

BB - Old guy, 1st orbit at the table - $500
MP1 - Reg in his mid-20s, a bit loose, not that aggressive - $2000
MP2 (Hero) - 32y old male. I'm bad in reading myself, my overall PF stats are usually 20-22/18, probably what I was playing at the table - $2300
HJ (Main villain) - Middle aged guy, super fishy, VPIP over 50%. Main fish on the table - $2000

Hand happened as follows:

Hero had KK

PF -> MP1 limps, Hero raises to $25 (should have raised more, first mistake I assume here), HJ 3-bets $75 (unusual for him to 3-bet PF), BB calls, MP1 fold, Hero 4-bets to $215, HJ calls, BB calls.

Flop ($655): Qh8h5d -> BB checks, Hero bets $350, HJ calls, BB fold

Turn ($1355): Qs -> 1st question: what the hell should Hero do here? bet/fold? bet/call? check/fold? I got extremely confused, and bet $650. Villain shoved (approx. $800 more). 2nd question: should I call?

I wasn't at all comfortable with this spot and I'm not used to playing that deep. What should I do here?

AP, decision really depends on what you’ve seen him show in the active 2 hours played. Sounds like he could do this with JJ/TT/FD. Do you have the Kh?

You’ve put 60% of stack in, getting > 4-1 vs. the table target … call.

The 4bet sizing is smallish, making it $140 for HJ to call into a pot of $390. Perhaps you wanted to keep ranges a bit wider.

I’d go smaller on the flop, C/C turn, allowing main V to bet his entire range.

Well first q is what range do u assign HJ where he 3!/flats your 4! pre? This deep it is probably wider than normal, so I would say 99+, AQs+, AK. So on this board, you are beat by AQs and AA from that range.

For me, turn might be a b/f as we really don't beat anything but a bluff here. So I would have bet more like $400 and folded to the shove.

AP it is harder as the pot is laying you over 4-1 to call, so you only need to be good around 20% of the time to call. I probably still let it go here though as I just don't see too many bluffs in his range here as you could easily have AQs in your range and yet he is still shoving. One thing to remember is that people play much more straightforwardly in 3 and 4 bet pots, so you can believe their actions much more than in a single raised pot.

I posted a similar hand albeit a single raised pot with an overpair and top card pairing on the turn.

I don’t really like betting turn here because we just don’t have enough TPs here the way the hand played out. Only AQs makes sense. OTOH, V has a lot of Qx and can put a lot of pressure on us.

I’d either x/c or x/f.

Bet smaller on the flop. Then probably check/call turn and evaluate rivers. More apt to call down especially if you do not hold Kh. He could easily have AK of hearts. Maybe KJh or k10h but that really shouldnt be in his range

So this is a "super fishy" player, the biggest fish at the table and he was the one who 3bet pre. These types of players usually have a very narrow 3bet range composed of only aces and kings. Of course it depends on the player but I don't think we're good here. This looks like quads since he flatted the 4bet, or maybe he got cute with 88, but I don't think these types of players will bluff in a 4bet pot like this. He pretty much assumes by your 4bet that you have aces or kings yourself which he thinks he has beat.

More info on the HJ is needed like what hands have you've seen him raise with? Has he 3bet at all yet, etc.

Size up a bit for the 4bet, I'd go around 250.

I don't mind the flop bet, we are betting into 2 people on a 2 tone board, though the board isn't super wet so no need to bet too big. If we have Kh, we could go a bit smaller here.

On the turn, I prefer a check back, pot is already quite big and though our hand is strong, we could exercise some pot control.

When jammed against, we really need to know his bet frequencies, what kind of fish is this guy, does he ever bet? Has he shown to over play pairs? I'd like to think I am good enough to lay down 3 combos of KK where we have a Kh in our hand, makes it impossible for villain to be bluffing with AKhh and KJhh, but KJhh is seriously overplayed, and AKhh might put in a raise on the flop.

That being said, there are 8 combos of AQ (still overplayed pre), 2 of which are AQss and 1 combo of QQ. 12 combos of JJ and TT out there, so if villain overplays pairs, we can certainly call off here. If we make villain shove wider, such as 99, then this is a much more profitable call, though villain probably isn't 3betting 99 and 88.

Potential for KQ, KQo is again very over played and depending on our suits, KQss might be out of the question. With 2 K blockers, there are only 4 combos of KQ left.

I don't think I am good enough to fold KK no heart here. Behind a computer I am going to say we need to be folding KK some of the times, and those are the ones with a h, but at the tables, I am fishy enough to get stacked here even if I have Kh to AQ.

25 good first time around no reason to broadcast hand-strength to anyone paying attention. Second time, 215 is just too small here because the 3b 'fish' simply forces you to have no bluffing range (and probably no perceived bluffs either) which means you have no choice but to size up and go semi-face up for fat value.

On this flop, I would choose a smaller sizing, but I do like a betting against these guys. You just can't allow free set equity and besides, the majority of all actions will result in call/fold. You also would like to keep in mind that a number of runouts are going to devalue your pair equity, even with the Kh, so keeping things deep/leaving yourself options for later against fish-types (and regs who limp) is in your best interest because you want value AND a showdown nearly always.

On the turn, once the IP fish calls and you go heads up, you need to play as uber-straightforward as possible for the reasons above. You have so far, so why would you elect to bet a turn like this? Qx along with a number of other cards are going to play best as a check because, again, you want to find your best path to value and/or showdown. It's a pretty glaring mistake with a fine check calling hand.


AP, it's a call. I agree to an extent with Playbig2000s assessment of what a loose fish's 3b range is because a player that has so many CALLS is going to have very few 3bets because there just aren't many hands left to 3b. However, I also am a big believer that the majority of Qx hands are played as calls and there are always BS bluffy hands that get 3b and then call just about any 4bet as long as there is stack in play. Sure AQ is a legit part of his range, but KQ, QT, QJ are awfully suspect 3bets, as is a hand that flopped a set here. So, because I can widen him to some hands that 3b pre and flop a combo draw and want to just gii now instead of calling, I would have to toss in the 800+ pretty quick and try to hold or steal his soul with a two-outer.

Maybe unpopular but I don't like our preflop 4bet for a couple reasons.

1) We're OOP to Villain, who can defend widely due to massive implied odds given stack sizes

2) Villain is a passive fish and they have a very narrow 3bet range that's often confined to AA/KK; there is a high risk of value-owning ourselves in this spot.

Any validity to just pot controlling with a call here and playing postflop in a reasonably-sized pot?

As played, I probably fold to this shove. We have to call 800 to win 2800, so we need about 29% equity to break even. Against a preflop 3bet range of QQ+ and AK/AKs, we only have about 17% equity so it's a losing call. Fold, unless you have reason to suspect he's 3betting you with a wider range that the standard passive fish range.

Also...there's value in learning to play deepstacked poker, but if you're uncomfortable playing 400bbs deep, there's no shame in picking up and calling it a night when you grow your stack that much.

Zero point zero.

I would raise more pre, but games play differently so maybe 25 is ok in yours.

against two villains and OOP vs the 3 better, I'm 4 betting far more - $290-300 ish

as played, bet less on the flop

as played, I'm check/calling turn - if we check, we can get value from 1010 and JJ if they bet. bet/folding the turn is brutal given pot odds but against random 5/5 villains, because they rarely have the stoned to shove over your bet without a Q or a boat so we put ourselves in a horrible spot with the bet on the turn

His vpip might be over 50% but whats his 3bet %?

I'm thinking his likely holding is not a Q but two aces... And now is our chance to get away

AA is definitely possible, albeit I would think AA would call turn.

OP do we have Kh?

Not saying you're wrong, but what default preflop 3bet range do you assign to bad, passive players after an EP limp and a LP raise?

I don't think they do this all that often with AK or even QQ, but I may be ranging completely incorrectly in this spot. What do you think they do this with?

Well there is no reason to believe his range is exactly AA, so you must not abort a hugely profitable 4b just because you are deep and oop and have to play poker for 3 more streets. Against a super-fishy player just adjust your sizing upward because you have no bluffs and want to make the max.

Old guy BB puts in $215 pre from a $500 stack then folds flop? Zomg

That’s a good reason to size a little smaller on the 4bet, which you did

As played, find any reason to call turn (V puts everyone on AK, V capable of playing JJ-99 pr+fd this way etc), and if you can’t find one, fold.

As for whether to bf bc cc turn it’s time I bought PIO

Sry guys, forgot to post back on this thread. Anyway, answering some of the questions:

1) We didn't have Kh in our hand

2) This was the 1st 3-bet PF ever from Villain. I don't think this means that he has AA, I think it only means that he is starting to play back at me for once (table is actually quite passive, most hands are limped pots and only 2-3 guys - including myself - are constantly raising PF).

3) I've seen him play a couple of bluffs before, but definitely not with these stack sizes. And usually his bluffs went by betting every street with air rather than 3-betting and 4-betting. I think in this specific spot V is rarely bluffing.

After reading the posts here and carefully thinking about this hand I don't think that I'm beating anything after his turn raise, so as played I think I should have folded to his raise. And perhaps the best line is c/f OTT, he is not the kind of villain that plays draws aggressively.

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