5/5 e600
Hero UTG opens QTss to 20.
BTN fish calls.
SB fish calls.
3 ways
65) flop KT7dcc
X hero bets 30. BTN folds. SB quick calls.
125) turn As
X x
125) riv 5h
SB bets 70. Hero calls?

Sooooo many missed draws, and it looks like I didn’t like that ace on the turn?
I unblock missed FD and SD and do block QJ...
I’m usually not a fan of bluff catching vs fish but this seems like a good spot?
Thoughts?

Entirely a live read situation. Good number of missed draws and some worse made hands would have called flop. At the same time some random garbage hit the ace and villain has KX in their range also. Make your call and go with it, I won't complain either way. I slightly favor a call just because it's a small pot and a good chance to show you can bluff catch.

Without more game-specific insight, I don't like opening QTs early. Given the SB being described as a fish, I like the turn check and would just fold the river. Fish love to play A-rag and slowplay all 2-pair, sets, etc.

"Population" fold otr against fish. Oddly enough, I think you could only profitably call skilled Vs on this river. I agree with JayKon's overall take on this hand.

True but what Ace-Rag is x/c flop?

Given the flop bet size (small) and the stacks (large), literally any A. Most likely would be suited clubs, A7o, ATo. However, almost any other connection is also possible. I suppose it's also possible he is value betting something worse than a pair of T's, though that isn't normal fish behavior.

I'm getting the feeling that you caught the fish bluffing his 1:25 times he tries, or that you've mislabeled the villain as a fish. Fish are loose, passive and seldom bet anything not close to the nuts.

It's not that close really, he has more Ax than you're accounting for plus we have a Q which kind of sucks, random 2p is also a pretty reasonable ... AJ AQ, and nfds that paired. Could call, can't really raise, prefer a fold.

I think you’re right that he could have A7,AT, AcXc. He can also have AJ, AQ. But he also has other flush draws and 98 (16 combos). His river sizing is maybe a bit small for A7/AT, and likely too small for QJ, but that’s a matter of reads. Anyway, he clearly has enough bluffs to justify a call if we think he can be bluffing.

Yours is not the definition of fish I’m accustomed to. You’re describing loose passive fish. There’s also loose aggressive fish, etc. Fish is just a catch-all for a losing player IMO.

I like that we hold a Q blocking AQ and QJ. Other composition of the hand is good, not holding any clubs. I think QTs is a bit better than KQs (no club), since we block AT with QT. so if you’re calling KQ here you might as well also call QT. (This of course under assumption that V never value bets a K on the river.)

Probably close either way since I think V is just likely to be close to balanced in this spot. Call or fold both okay by me.

OK, I'll accept all that. The point being that bluff-catching the river bet is a bad idea.

Yea, fish come in multiple flavors. Usually, an aggressive fish is called a LAG, or a weak LAG. It's hard to keep up sometimes.

RESULT

Hero calls and v snap mucks

V was not a fish then, most likely a weak LAG.

I know he's labeled as a fish, but I find nothing wrong w Vs line here, nor sizing. If he's good, Pre he might have a stronger range than we anticipate w H being a good player and btn being a spot. Maybe BB is too.

Ckc flop on KT7s is going to include a number of hands well ahead of CO range, turn swings equity but is also a clear range check, once H checks back and river bricks off. his river bet/sizing all things considered is quite good.

Granted he is, again, identified as a fish by H, but he didn't do anything from a line perspective that was bad poker -- and even a fish-range betting ahlf pot or whatever is going to be somewhat neutral if H is bc down to QT.

Hero opened UTG not CO (assuming this is full ring).

Hero probably should check back lot of his weaker Ax on the turn. think AJ/AQ can mix between bet and check (mostly bet), but Hero definitely should check back his suited wheel Ax, and KQ/KJ are clear check backs too.

Range bet from Villain on the river is total spew IMO. Like, Tx/7x is not a value bet from V considering all the hands he loses to.

Given the read that V is a fish, I think what likely happens on the river is that he splits his sizing and uses 60% for bluffs and closer to PSB for two pair+. Fish also aren’t value betting thinly enough, so he’s just gonna check back KQ and not use that 60% size, despite the fact that KQ is a clean value bet. My hypothesis would be that his 60% sizing includes some Axcc and then a load of missed draws (98,busted clubs, J9, etc). If that hypothesis is true, Hero can call down profitably with any pair facing the smaller size.

I am not sure I like the flop bet. In fact the more I think about it the more of a mistake it looks. As was also said, you have more Ax to call river.

A calling range should be relatively strong from a decent player from the SB here - he isn't some spot bc he didn't 3b from small or some nonsense --- I mean I'm not saying he isn't a fish, just saying that this is a line that is reasonable from a better player who is unlikely to have many ckr on KT7

Yeah, ok, range betting might not be -EV if his range is pretty tight. I guess my point is it’s not the most +EV line cause V does have a fair amount of hands that just want a cheap showdown (like JTs,QTs,T9s, which I presume are all in a good players SB flat range vs UTG open and spot flat on BTN). Hero looks capped at 1-pair, so I think a bigger sizing with 2pair+ makes more sense from Villain. Agree with you that he’s not obviously a fish from this one line where we didn’t see showdown. Though, if V did turn over JTs with this line, that is kind of fishy, I think

Fish in my games bluff and they don’t have to be LAGs to do so. But it’s very situational. They pick spots to bluff when they hold no showdown value and when they perceive opponent to have shown a lot of weakness. (LAGs will attack you whether you’ve shown weakness or not.)

For instance, in this hand, the fish could never believe that we the Hero would check back an Ace or a good King in this spot. After all there’s a flush draw on board, and good pairs need protection. So they “put us on a hand”…like, obviously we have a small pp or a T when we check back turn. That’s fish logic, of course, because we really can have an A by the river. Anyway they’re perceiving our weakness and then choosing to bluff with all the unpaired crap in their range (and they have a lot of crap because of how wide they play preflop).

If you Google “definition of Fish poker” and click the top few links, you’ll see that unbridled passivity is not a prerequisite for being a fish. Fish just is a derogatory term for a losing, easily exploitable player — one who is easily “eaten” by the sharks. Fish vs Shark is a dichotomy.

I like call, think I might prefer raise if villain knows how to fold AJ type

OK, nice that the OP snapped off a bluff ... this time. I maintain that fish are overwhelming passive and have a connection the vast majority of the time they bet. So, in the absence of a tell, or other countervailing information, calls like this are going to be a losing proposition long term.

I tend to agree with u