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5/5/10, ,730 effective Leveling War with A high. 5/5/10, ,730 effective Leveling War with A high.

05-04-2023 , 12:19 AM
First off, I know this play is theoretically bad. I based my play off of reads and overall played like a knuckle-dragger. But I have to share.

8 handed. Villain is a LAG in early 30s who can't help himself from bluffing. Has bluffed dry ace of diamonds into my Q high flush another session. Has showed down a few nonsense bluffs vs other players, calling a 3bet with K2s and successfully bluffing multiway with nothing. Tells table story about how he 5bet bluffed AKo all in and sucked out vs AA. Guy is charismatic and a smooth talker.

V in UTG opens to 40. One caller on button. Hero 3bets to $230 from $10 straddle with AK. V calls, button folds.

Flop ($510) 944 Hero bets $230. Villain raises to $600. Hero calls.

Turn ($1,610) 9 Villain bets $800.

Hero goes into tank. I know I have better continues here. I know having A unblocks him from having A9s or A4s. I ask him if he has a 9, or 4. All I get is an uncomfortable sort of half grin and he looks away at the table. I get clock called on me. I just feel like he is full of **** fairly often here and I may be chopping or have the best hand. There was no flush draw on flop, he is in position. What is the urgency for him to pile money into the pot if he has a strong hand? I can have all the overpairs. Does he really do this with JJ, QQ? 99 probably traps flop. A4 can trap too. A single 9 raising flop is also far-fetched. But if he is running a bluff, he wants the betting lead. I call.

River ($3,210) 6

Hero leads all in for $1,100.

My thinking is, I already sort of made up my mind. I am calling turn and probably going to call river with A high.
hoping for at least a chop. And if he has it, oh well. But I think I can get him off a chop now. I know this line is ridiculous, bet size is small for the pot, and I probably never value bet like this.

Hand result:

Spoiler:
Villain folds. I don't show. BU chimes in about how annoyed he is that I took so long I Hollywooded, even getting clock called, when I clearly had a 9. I tell table what I had and no one believes me. Gets laughs out of a few guys for how terrible of a lie it is. Villain says he had A high also. Things get slightly heated. Good times.
5/5/10, ,730 effective Leveling War with A high. Quote
05-04-2023 , 12:58 AM
I don’t have issue with it. AK has plenty of showdown value in these spots as well sometimes.

Might even call a guy like this down with AK with A high only in the right situation.
5/5/10, ,730 effective Leveling War with A high. Quote
05-04-2023 , 01:08 AM
Smaller flop bet but wtver

I probably just c/shove turn

As played not sure what shoving river accomplishes.

Also dont post results right away as it will bias the answers you get.
5/5/10, ,730 effective Leveling War with A high. Quote
05-04-2023 , 01:48 AM
Without reading the spoiler, this hand makes no sense to me. If we think he's capable of bluff raising, I'd rather just check and call down. I think most opponents will have a 9,4, or a pair though, so I just fold unless I think I can float and bluff him off it later. The turn is an even better time to fold considering we could be dead now. On the river, would we even play a flush like this? I think we get sigh called too often with a pair or he has a boat already.
5/5/10, ,730 effective Leveling War with A high. Quote
05-04-2023 , 02:33 AM
Why did you stop him from bluffing again on river?
5/5/10, ,730 effective Leveling War with A high. Quote
05-04-2023 , 07:54 AM
I didn't want to chop. On turn, if river had come A or K, I think I might be able to get paid off.
5/5/10, ,730 effective Leveling War with A high. Quote
05-04-2023 , 10:19 AM
Mlark - can you give starting stack sizes please? Thanks for sharing cool hand!
5/5/10, ,730 effective Leveling War with A high. Quote
05-04-2023 , 10:54 AM
Villains line really makes no sense - don't think he'd raise flop with 4x/99 so we're left with maybe AA/KK that wanted to "trap" potentially preflop, although we block both and sometimes he 4bets those hands. Well played not folding - this guy must really burn money playing insanely aggro like this.
5/5/10, ,730 effective Leveling War with A high. Quote
05-04-2023 , 10:57 AM
Thanks Spanishmoon!

Believe it was about even between me and Villain, think V had me covered slightly, and BU had me covered. $2,730 effective.

Pokerfan, that was my conclusion too. Haven't played enough with this guy to know if he torches money or not. He makes some plays that seem spewey, but aggression can pay off a lot, especially against weaker players in the right spots. It is higher variance though, so sometimes you seem like a genius and other times really spewey.

Last edited by Mlark; 05-04-2023 at 11:03 AM.
5/5/10, ,730 effective Leveling War with A high. Quote
05-04-2023 , 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mlark
Thanks Spanishmoon!

Believe it was about even between me and Villain, think V had me covered slightly, and BU had me covered. $2,730 effective.

Pokerfan, that was my conclusion too. Haven't played enough with this guy to know if he torches money or not. He makes some plays that seem spewey, but aggression can pay off a lot, especially against weaker players in the right spots. It is higher variance though, so sometimes you seem like a genius and other times really spewey.
Yeh I agree but for him to get that crazy in a 3bet pot pretty deep means he'll be bleeding money sooner than later. He's just using raw aggression with no care of board textures, your range, etc.
5/5/10, ,730 effective Leveling War with A high. Quote
05-04-2023 , 04:34 PM
I think it’s really important to consider your image in his eyes. We know he overbluffs but how do you play?

Depending on that answer I like jamming flop or turn. We fold out every pp and also equity from two live cards. Leaving behind 1/3 pot otr seems like an impossible spot with AK high. His sizing is pretty bad ott.
5/5/10, ,730 effective Leveling War with A high. Quote
05-04-2023 , 05:32 PM
I think through villain's eyes he sees me as tight with my raises and that maybe he can put me to the test and get me to fold better or a chop on the turn.

I don't know that we really fold out PPs if we jam over the top on flop. On turn I feel like there is a good chance I'm at least chopping and maybe have the best hand. At that point I'm in the mode of calling down the river, hoping for an A or K. On the turn, he might be able to make a call with A high. On the river, now he has to beat flushes as well. And while yes, the board is double paired, he shouldn't have a ton of 4x in his range, or 9x given his flop raise, so it's not too far out there thay I could have rivered the nut flush and I am hoping he doesn't have a 9 or 4.

But I certainly see the case for jamming flop or turn for equity denial too.
5/5/10, ,730 effective Leveling War with A high. Quote
05-05-2023 , 10:36 AM
i dont think the logic from street to street is consistent. the amount of parlays i think it requires to decide to bluff catch the flop and turn with bare ace high and decide to bluff the river for 1/3 of pot is astronomical imo, especially when your line reps nothing. most of the hand analysis looks like wishful thinking without unified assumptions to me tbh. i dont mean that in a mean way but alot of your thoughts dont really line up from a logical manner when i read them
5/5/10, ,730 effective Leveling War with A high. Quote
05-05-2023 , 12:58 PM
Given reads, I think folding here is bad. OTF I might just go into cc mode against this specific opponent but I'm never folding to his raise. OTT I'm split between crai and calling with a plan to call any river. You A high is good here often enough so the only question is whether you should be calling to let him bluff with K high or worse vs crai to fold him off of A high type hands.
5/5/10, ,730 effective Leveling War with A high. Quote
05-05-2023 , 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by submersible
i dont think the logic from street to street is consistent. the amount of parlays i think it requires to decide to bluff catch the flop and turn with bare ace high and decide to bluff the river for 1/3 of pot is astronomical imo, especially when your line reps nothing. most of the hand analysis looks like wishful thinking without unified assumptions to me tbh. i dont mean that in a mean way but alot of your thoughts dont really line up from a logical manner when i read them
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5/5/10, ,730 effective Leveling War with A high. Quote
05-05-2023 , 03:14 PM
Sorry, I accidentally hit post before and couldn't edit it in time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by submersible
i dont think the logic from street to street is consistent. the amount of parlays i think it requires to decide to bluff catch the flop and turn with bare ace high and decide to bluff the river for 1/3 of pot is astronomical imo, especially when your line reps nothing. most of the hand analysis looks like wishful thinking without unified assumptions to me tbh. i dont mean that in a mean way but alot of your thoughts dont really line up from a logical manner when i read them
I don't totally disagree with you. Like I said, I played like a knuckle-dragger dragged, and theoretically bad. I know I probably don't really have value here. I know that I should oy have line 20% bluff and 80% value with a small jam on river. However, I had a read and there is a logic. I thought the probability of B bluffing turn was high enough for me to profitably call off turn. At that point I basically made the decision to call river. So on the river, if he has a strong hand, I just lose the max. If he has K high or worse and bluffs, I win an extra $1,100. On river. But if I get a chop to fold, I win the $3,210 pot instead of chopping, which is $1,605. If he has A high more than lower high cards and he will fold it, then I win an extra $1,605. So if the money I win from denying a chop is greater than the money I lose from letting him blast off with K high or worse, weighted for the probability that I think he has those hands, then it is a profitable bluff.

Also, exploitatively, my small bluff doesn't have to work very often for it to be profitably. And the odds he get to call a chop are not as good as a normal bluff catch since he can only win half of the pot.

Also, I do think my As blocker is good, because my best hands are mainly overpairs, so if he was bluffing with backdoor spades, even though the board is double paired, a flush is likely good. So it is nice to block a lot of that.
5/5/10, ,730 effective Leveling War with A high. Quote
05-05-2023 , 06:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mlark
Sorry, I accidentally hit post before and couldn't edit it in time.



I don't totally disagree with you. Like I said, I played like a knuckle-dragger dragged, and theoretically bad. I know I probably don't really have value here. I know that I should oy have line 20% bluff and 80% value with a small jam on river. However, I had a read and there is a logic. I thought the probability of B bluffing turn was high enough for me to profitably call off turn. At that point I basically made the decision to call river. So on the river, if he has a strong hand, I just lose the max. If he has K high or worse and bluffs, I win an extra $1,100. On river. But if I get a chop to fold, I win the $3,210 pot instead of chopping, which is $1,605. If he has A high more than lower high cards and he will fold it, then I win an extra $1,605. So if the money I win from denying a chop is greater than the money I lose from letting him blast off with K high or worse, weighted for the probability that I think he has those hands, then it is a profitable bluff.

Also, exploitatively, my small bluff doesn't have to work very often for it to be profitably. And the odds he get to call a chop are not as good as a normal bluff catch since he can only win half of the pot.

Also, I do think my As blocker is good, because my best hands are mainly overpairs, so if he was bluffing with backdoor spades, even though the board is double paired, a flush is likely good. So it is nice to block a lot of that.
i dont think you need to worry about the balance of the hand or the math or whatever. even in your explanation here what you're saying on the turn is different than what you're saying on the river. i think its fine to decide ok this guy is bluffing way too much im going to call down. i just dont think the river changes anything certainly not enough to decide to change the plan and donk the river all in for 1/3 pot. im not sure i understand why you think he has a ton of ace highs here or if he does why you dont want to xr the turn, but then having seen a backdoor 6 decide to call an audible.
5/5/10, ,730 effective Leveling War with A high. Quote

      
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