Vil 1: early mid age restaurant owner, Asian. Been playing this game 4-5 days/wk for about 2 months. Calling station mostly.

Vil 2: late mid age white recreational day-time reg. also station, and tends to over value hands.

I'm a 50ish white guy prob considered a reg in the game, and most realize I consistently win. Not sure what these two think.

2500 eff.

Pre. Vil 1 open raises 40 from MP, vil 2 calls from btn. Now my action here is unconventional for several reasons. I call in BB with AKdd. These guys are not folding to pre raises but are also putting all the money in if I hit my hand.

Flop (125)

8c Jd 2s

Vil 1 bets 55, btn calls, I call.

Turn (290)

8d

Vil 1 110, vil 2 calls, I call.

River (620)

10d

Vil 1 throws purple in (500), vil 2 inst-shoves, hero?

I wouldn't get to the river like this in this hand but now that you did this seems like an easy fold

I'm confused what position are you in? shouldn't you be acting first on each street?

Expand on pre plz. I don't mind flatting hu, but 3-way I don't see it... Regardless, flop overcall is super ambitious/I don't see that either.

River is a cringe fold imo.

It was an assumed check on each street.

The description for these two are similar. Just being in the hand with both of them, and no one else is a special treat. Huge stations. There was no reason to bloat the pot pre oop. If I hit my hand in any fashion, and they had a piece, I could shove 100x pot, and get called (ie., top pair is nuts for both.)

This may help explain pre, and the flop call. I got my dream run-out but, the action otr ?.

so if this is the case against these guys being stations/never folding why not 3bet pre?

as played u runner'd it as good as u could and got what ur hoping for (made basically nuts against the two guys u wanted to be in a hand with) why are u checking river?

u said that if u hit ur hand (which you did) and these guys had a piece (which they prob do) you could shove 100x pot and get called so why not just open shove river since ur first to act?

So on the river it goes check, bet $500 into $620, shove for $2295, action on you? If yes it's an easy fold.

There's a ton of incongruity in OP saying "hit anything (starting with top pair) and both villains will stack off" and worrying about what to do with basically one of the strongest hands we are gonna make with AKs. If assessment is correct, seems like easy call.

Pre is fine as played, prob 3betting more often OOP than IP but doesn't matter too much since our hand plays so well post. Flop call is prob losing money, turn is call, river is prob close in vacuum, would like to find a fold ideally but prob calling off in game.

Seems like a fold. I doubt V2 ever bluff shoves over V1's pot sized river bet. And to win, both players need to have < boat.

I really don't think there are good enough arguments for flatting preflop against these guys. Set yourself up to win a big pot with top pair (or take it down unimproved). 200 pre and take it from there.

grunch

imo raise pre, fold flop, fold river

I think not 3betting preflop is pretty criminal. The fact that they are calling stations is even more reason to raise for value pre. Not to mention you will be playing a bigger pot and therefore have more fold equity for your semibluffs / barrels.

floating this flop OOP against two calling stations is extremely difficult to pull off.

I'd much rather flat TT here than AK suited (though irl I prob wouldn't flat either ever in this spot). Regardless, the only huge mistake pre would be to fold- and you didn't do that, so let's move on...

I think there's just a ton of rio in overcalling flop. If I was too bored to fold, I would c/r small and bomb the **** out of most turns or maybe just c/r big one time. You likely don't have the best hand now and there is hardly any guarantee you have immediate outs heading to the turn. And then being oop makes things even worse in that it will get checked through a lot of the time you bink the best hand, and if you donk things just get super confusing/rio-y.



AP, these calling stations are taking pretty aggressive actions. If they are as you described I honestly think you should have open shoved river. But with a winning reg (you) check/calling down and it being 3-way, a 3rd barrel of 500 seems pretty strong for 5-10, and the snap shove doesn't really scare me all that much but I suppose that could be a boat as well.

I think a, "I know I have you beat (while pointing to the shover), but I think you have me (pointing to the purple chip guy), so I'm going to lay down this monster (while showing your hand to the massage girl behind you)" speech might be in order, idk.

I'd 3bet pre exactly 100pct of the time vs these guys. I dont have a problem with the flop call. River seems like an easy fold.....he cant have worse flushes and it would be absurd for him to be bluffing here given your reads on these guys.

As rudimentary as this question may sound, I'll ask it anyway. What is/are the reason(s) for 3-betting preflop? I don't want a general answer. Be specific for this situation.

I would three bet for value, AKs is way ahead of these guys ranges if your descriptions are accurate. I don't think calling is terrible either but you are probably leaving some sklansky Bucks behind a lot of the time

I agree normally, and actually reached for raising chips but, these are the guys that put the "lol" in "lol live poker." Remember I'm the BB, and last to act. I couldn't risk a fold from either villian, and they are oblivious to pot size, SPR, bet sizing etc. If they have atc, which they do, they are likely to fold to a 3-bet, and I lose a shot at their stacks if they hit either of their cards, or better yet a draw.

This leads me into the flop call. I have 15 outs otf that allow me to continue. Not just continue into the abyss but, when both villains decide to put chips into the pot otf, this is an easy call (if we fully understand who we are dealing with.)

As a side note, I don't post many hands here but, when I do it has left most of you thinking at least a little differently about live poker. This is the case here. Like DGAF has said, a lot of us feel the need to live, eat, and breathe nl to stay sharp. Sometimes we get into a groove, and we are on auto pilot (like we have the game nearly solved), and then a hand like this comes up, and you have to clear your head, and open your mind to a different way of thinking because a couple of players in your game don't know, and don't play by your rules.

The takeaway, which I will discuss after results came from one of the 3 pros I asked, that were in the game. He is insanely successful both online, and live. His view of this whole hand goes against all of us. This guy made 7 figures online in multiple years, and has a live win-rate in the stratosphere, and that's who we will gain our learning experience from on this hand, not me.

Based on your initial descriptions I don't see them folding to 3bets very often, which is why I said not 3 betting is a mistake. Assuming they continue with a lot of dominated hands I think this clearly makes us the most money. If you think they are both folding to 160-200 a lot of the time then calling certainly becomes a reasonable option, but when you describe two villains as calling stations and never folding when they have a pair of anything not 3 betting seems insane. The river decision is interesting based on the read that the guy overvalues hands, but what worse hands does he think are the nuts here? A8? seems unlikely, and he cant have a worse flush.

if the bold is true (which I doubt) I hope you're 3betting them insanely wide

why not min-3bet then? guys of this description aren't folding pre if you just make it 80. in fact a min-3bet might induce them to do a bunch of really good things in your favor. i just cant understand not putting in more money pre against these types of guys.

My problem with this is the people who are like the people you describe, aren't the ones to be folding to 3bets.

I can't win with any hand against any opponent right now, so believe me, I'm all ears... Wrt pre, a) winning the money out there with no flop should not be considered a negative imo, and b) I'm really struggling to wrap my head around the idea of whales who will call off 100x post with any piece also being the type to fold to an oop 3b super deep pre. If this is the case somehow though, I'd 3b my entire dealt in the bb range and scoop the 95 over and over (again, taking down 95 pre with no flop oop 3way is muy bueno with ANY hand imo).

In general though AK suited is just an absolute beast of a starting hand. It wins unimproved plenty, it flops amazing (wrt equity), it dominates a zillion hands people love to play/call reraises with, and though it plays well passively hu (where it can win unimproved a lot), it's pretty great to take initiative/apply pressure with multiway (pre, cbets, etc) because it flops two overs worst case scenario, and gutshot and/or fd/bdfd a good amount.

Also these stacks love a 3b imo. If you were 100bb deep then I'd understand the awkwardness of 3b + cbet + now what with not much left? And of course you can stack fish a lot easier in single raised pots when only 100 bbs deep.

Basically I'm 3betting in your spot because I want to start building this pot/making the spr reasonable for stacking these two goofballs with my dominating hand, and I want initiative...

I think flop is a clear fold but I'm fine not agreeing with that (AAIMF likes the flat so that's a pretty good endorsement)...

Very interested to hear who this crusher is in your game, why he's playing live 5-10, and what wisdom he shared with you (seriously, I'm not trying to be a dick at all, you have always been cool/respectful on here, my head is just kinda splattered all over the ceiling in this hand and in general lately and I'd love some clarity). Thx.

I know who he's referring to and he's indeed very good, but I agree with everything in DGAFs post above irt preflop. I think the flop call is fine because we are getting a great price to peel vs two guys who aren't good with a hand that has some sneaky backdoor equity and enough raw equity vs both of their ranges to continue.

If I'm not being results oriented, and of course I have immense respect for those on this thread, not 3-betting pre was a mistake. I have to say here though (which I will discuss after results) for the rest of the hand, both villains literally ignored me in the hand. Both villains totally disregarded me in the hand because of the passive way I played both pre and post (got that info from them, from post hand discussion.)

The villains both admitted that they played out the rest of the hand with no regard for me. One aspect of 3-betting pre, not mentioned is that it now puts the spotlight on me, and possibly freezes the post flop action. We do know that 3-bet pots multi-way tend to play a little more straight forward than single raised.

You are really strongly trying to advocate why flatting with AKs is better but from your descriptions you keep contradicting yourself. If you win the pot PF it is a pretty good result, but based off your reads I doubt they fold regardless. I think the flop peel is too loose. River is a wtf and honestly I call because both villians are ******ed.