V1 is a middle-aged recreational LAG. He is losing in the session despite tripling through hero and V2 with AA v AK v AQ aipf and previously doubling through hero's friend with 55 v KK aipf... He is in the CO with 1275.

V2 is a young player from London who doesn't really factor into this hand too much... He is in the SB with about 1500.

Hero is playing very SLAG and has shown a bunch of bluffs, thin V-bets, etc. He recently bluffed V1 in a 1k pot and showed... He is in the BB and covers.

Pre- (15) V1 open-limps in the CO, button folds, V2 completes in the SB, hero makes it 100 with ATo in the BB, both call.

Flop- (300) QT4r. Checks around.

Turn- (300) QT49r. V2 checks, hero bets 200, V1 ships for 1175, V2 folds, hero goes in the tank... While hero is thinking, V1 says, "What do you have, kings? I put you on kings... I can beat kings right now."

Should hero call or fold?

Well I don't think he actually puts you on KK. Whether or not you should call is read dependent and must take into account if he can be bluffing on this dry board three way and can he also ship a Q here. When I read the KK comment, something in my mind snapped and with the description you gave of this guy I get the feeling you are good here.

Don't understand pre, a raise to 50 would have still built a nice pot against their garbage ranges and given you more wiggle room postflop with these stack sizes. This post kinda feels like a reverse post, except I know you would never open limp in the co

pre seems kinda bad. fold now.

-not a reverse post lol
-the board is not dry imo
-I like pre a lot, but have an open mind if you can explain what's so bad about it all things considered (my holding, my position, my image, the two villains, etc)

The board is dry insofar as this is a wa/wb spot where villain just can't have many draws to bluff with. I doubt AJ or Jx limps and calls 100 pre, which leaves only 78 and pure bluffs. I would have said obv. fold if not for his table talk. Ime against this type of guy this KK talk is pure weakness. It's like because of your flop check he has no idea what you have but just picked one of the two most obvious hands that you would raise to 100 pre with.

I think raising to 50 or 60 pre with eff. stack sizes is way better. It means we can raise a much wider range in spots like this and can fire two barrels instead of bet flop/give up or check flop/eval. Also we will be able to get away from nasty spots easier and keep other Aces and Tens that we have dominated in preflop and get possibly two streets of value post. I expect sb to fold 100% of the time in this spot so it's not like we need to raise more to isolate or something (lol at London guy completing and then calling 100). If you were to raise 100 it would be better with 72 or a PP and that really polarizes your range in one of the few spots I think is worth balancing in live poker. The only benefit I see to making it 100 is that the pot is bigger when he folds otf, but why do it with a hand that rates to be best but can't take much heat oop in a big pot?

[QUOTE=DGAF;27017761]V1 is a middle-aged recreational LAG. He is losing in the session despite tripling through hero and V2 with AA v AK v AQ aipf and previously doubling through hero's friend with 55 v KK aipf... He is in the CO with 1275.


Turn- (300) QT49r. V2 checks, hero bets 200, V1 ships for 1175, V2 folds, hero goes in the tank... While hero is thinking, V1 says, "What do you have, kings? I put you on kings... I can beat kings right now."

That kind of speech does not sound like the nuts, but I think you probably have to be there to know whether he has something like 10-9 for 2 pair or is trying to talk you off an overpair. I assume he would have bet a queen or better on the flop once you checked. I kind of hate the term "soul read" but sounds like one of those situations. Problem is all you can beat is a bluff basically. Since he's losing despite the hands you described, one question is whether he's lost his money bluffing or calling. If the former might be worth a hero call.

The speech actually makes me want to fold more. Why would you ever not cbet with kings on a q high flop? Unless he is really that bad, he should know you never have kings and the hand you have is basicly the top of your range. I think stuck villian has a hand like qj or 910 and wants you to call light. Also in my experience, rec players tell the truth more often than not in these all in situations. Also the fact that previous 2 hands he doubled up were the nuts rather than him shoving kj leads me to believe hes not the bluff happy type.

My 2 cents - when you checked the flop, then bet the turn, it "feels" like based on the limited info provided he might be putting hero on AK. We know live players love to do that, and I'm sure with your image he couldn't believe it when you checked the flop. I know he gave the speech about KK, but that was while you were tanking. He doesn't sound like the type to check back a Q otf in position. It seems like he shipped with something like JT, J9s, or even AJ depending on if you think he opens with that pf or not (In the 5/10 I play in Oregon I see players l/c AJo in mid-ish position somewhat frequently).

After his call of $200, he has another $975 behind with $700 already in there, right? Not $1175 more? So $975 for $1675. This is 1 case where I personally try to get a live read by tanking a bit longer. If villain looks less and less like he can breathe without puking I call. I think, based on what info we have, that he put you on AK when he shoved, but now that it's clear you have something he is panicking and trying to get you to fold. I assume you haven't seen him talk like this while his opponent is tanking?

I don't know that there is a clear answer but I'm leaning toward a call, personally.

Timebomb, I agree that rec players usually tell the truth, but sequence seems big here. If he moved ai, then hero tanks, then villain gets uncomfortable, then he starts talking, I feel like he is trying to talk us into a fold. A problem I'm having is that I am making an assumption that villain is bad, but op doesn't really say that. It just days villain is recreational LAG, that he got aipf with 55, that he is stuck despite some big pots, and that despite being labeled LAG he open limp/called in co. I put those things together to build some assumptions that could be wrong.

This is an easy fold, forget the speech, this isn't a good spot, you'll find much better to pick him off. Does he really shove to your bet with a worse hand? If you don't have a solid read that he's capable of this then forget it.

it seems pretty bad to try to iso someone oop unless they're insanely nitty.

seems pretty likely that he has something like QJ and doesn't know if he wants you to fold or call

[QUOTE=jrr63;27020368] He lost most his money chasing miracles and paying off all the luckboxes at the table way too light. He's also had some ill timed bluffs. He is anything but scared money.

He got like 100 bbs in pre with 55 against my friend.

i dont understand the point of this thread.

None of your reads are relevant other than that villain likes to gamble it up. How about telling us if he can get it in thin and knowing it postflop? Or can he make thin calldowns? Or does he only like to take initiative when everyone else is weak. Or is does he simply think well he checked on _____ so he can't have ____ ok shove!


you're never going to get a good discussion on this hand because well, you're stuck in a guessing game where the only "reads" you have are that he likes to make dubious decisions preflop so he doesn't have to make them postflop.

I don't see any evidence that suggests you should call. Now tell me he likes to think on lvl 2 exclusively and yeah, obviously calling looks a **** ton better.

and pre is putrid imo. You looking to get ATo in when he ships 66/AJss+?

I agree it's not a great spot. However, I don't believe in "wait for a better spot" in live full ring. There are zero guarantees you will even get another hu spot for stacks with the fish ime. Someone else might bust him, he might quit in 5 mins for whatever reason, he might run good in a few hands and start playing better/tighter, you might look down at the likes of 93o for the next 3 hours, etc.

***I'm not saying you shouldn't make folds against the fish, I'm just saying you shouldn't make them for the reason you provided.

I misread that part, but I still fold. Just curious, why not bet flop?

He's playing really bad/fishy. I was trying to imply that without actually saying it. Idk who reads this forum and its an absolute travesty imo when a bad rec player realizes he's the reason everyone is still playing at 5 am. It's worse than when a kid finds out there is no santa claus imo.

I raise to $50 pre and then fire this board twice for value and c/call most rivers as long as board runs out good

as played, i dunno it doesn't seem like anybody can give you good advice as this is a live soul read spot

that's atrocious

The speech and the over-bet, to me, make it more likely he's bluffing or semi-bluffing and trying to move hero off a marginal hand like he has. This guy is losing and willing to gamble to make it up. I think he could have 910, but he has J9 or J10 often enough to make this a call. My calling frequency goes up the more he is losing.

w/o the speech i fold this a ton.

i see two types of players giving this speech:

those who enjoy being well liked, who like checking it down to be nice, who generally get satisfaction from having the best hand regardless of what's happening in the pot.

then there are those who are angle shooters and pathological liars, ranging from mischievous to sociopathic.

so yeah i would try to guess which one of those villain is, and fold the first and call the second. altho the second will hit his draw.

also since he initiated the speech i would prob pump him for more info.

edit: i walked thru the v tonight and games looked kinda bad, even tho there were a lot of 5-10+. have games been good?

Read the title. The point of this thread is to see if people are calling or folding turn.

Lmao. It's live poker. I've been playing with this guy for less than 2 hours. He's at the other end of the table. I provided all the information I had to go on... Should I have told the dealer, "Uhh, I'm not going to act on this raise because I don't know all this guy's tendencies and I haven't all the pertinant information to make the correct decision"? I mean, come on man.

Wrong. See onedollars' and kwansolo's posts below (among others).


Wow- this is pretty conjured/crazy. God bless...

Regarding pre: I realize isoing oop is unconventional. However, I had a hand that figured to be best a huge % of the time, and one that loves to be hu against an atc range and doesn't play that well multiway. I also had one player in the pot who was playing really fishy/transparent, and one player who seemed like an internet pro in town for the WSOP. I should have decribed the villains better in my op, and probably would have had I not posted from my phone (where proofreading is difficult). My bad... Hopefully this clarification (along with flop play being at least understandable/fine) enables the discussion to move to the turn decision... What does that speech mean to you? How heavily are you weighing it? What kind of rough range are you coming up with for V1? Thx.

I have noticed alot of pros (even so called TAGs rather than SLAGs or LAGs) making these large pf oop oob raises with weak/medium As. I know there must be a good tactical reason for doing it, but I can't really figure it out. Would you be willing to explain idea behind it? Ty

Oops, I think you just explained it in above post which you must have been writing while I was writing. . .

The simple answer is that the large sizing is compensation for being oop with deepish stacks and Axo plays well against one opponent with a really wide range and terrible against many opponents with really wide ranges.

Or we are just clicking buttons ...