Hero - Just transferred from another game and only know 2 other players at the table who know me as sticky lag. I have 2k.

Villian#1 - 20s pro plays between aggro tag and slag, but mostly lag. Pretty good hand reader who takes position/aggression to the extreme but plays a lot weaker/standard out of position although still likes to bluff/spew at least as much as I do. I have played a couple dozen sessions with villian and we haven't had as many memorable hands as you would expect from our styles, I think we would both rather just pick on fish His stack covers. The only real read I have on villian is he is way more slag when he is not playing with his phone. He was on phone when I sat down but puts it away before hand is dealt.

Villian#2 - I have never played with before. 40ish, my only read is that he is a bit of fit or fold (based on 1 hand I have been at lol). He has a little over 1.2k.

Pre - V2 limps utg+1 mp limps V1 makes it 50 and I call in HJ with 106d. V2 calls and mp folds.

Flop (175) - 467r. V2 leads 50, V1 tank calls and I call.

Turn (325) - Q (2d now). V2 bets 50 again and V1 tanks and makes it 250. I think a little and call and v2 puts on his best I'm consfused face and calls.

River (1075) - 8r. V2 checks quickly and looks to fold, V1 checks my chip stack and checks fairly quickly, I?

I think it would be pretty bad to check, although I wouldn't be shocked to have the best hand here. I also wouldn't be shocked to get snapped by V1's 99, although as far as V1 has seen I have it here more than I don't.

I'll just comment on the river

since personally I would not have even seen a flop with your hand,

Anyways as played I'd definitely turn my hand into a bluff on he river

Wow you played it pretty terribly on all streets IMO...fold pre for sure, as played pre, raise/fold flop ...as played flop, fold turn

as played, this all comes down to your perceived range on the turn, and how thinly you can vbet the river

Fold preflop.

As played, 650 on river.

Villian is capable of hero calls, but I don't see how I can get value here. River is a pure bluff if I go for it.

The flop was a semifloat, if I brick I am probably raising and even then I was planning to raise. I think my hand is very disguised so I don't see how I can fols turn. Pre is meh I know, but I am never ever folding this unless I am in a very tough game although I think I should have 3-bet pre since I may just win it there.

I'd fold pre and play flop and turn the same, river I bet 5-600.

OP -

Not trying to Hijack thread but honestly if your never folding 610dd, what hands are you folding? Seems like your in some pretty sick games to think your edge is this big to be playing a Hand like this profitably. IMO if your playing trash just 3bet it. Calling can't be profitable. As played OTR $600

id bet more like 7-800 on riv

i jam otr
and dont think its an absolute mega disaster to flat ip with this hand (although default is fold pre for sure)
as long as you dont check this river in spots like this

Fold or 3bet pre. T6s is not a good hand... Villains have to be pretty damn bad for flatting to be OK IMO.

As played, definitely betting the river. 600 looks good.

I think raising turn might be better than flatting. Both players' hands look pretty weak so I think we have a good amount of FE and don't have much for implied odds on the river.

or does jamming look 2 bluffy cuz kinda hard for u to have 910

770 river, and wtf on all other streets

Yeah I should have 3bet pre but I wanted the limper. I def wanted to raise turn but I was a little uneasy about 3-betting, it would have made me really sad to not see a river. Also I felt I had immense implied odds with turned flush in position, not to mention I think 3betting turn and barrelling blank rivers is a bit spewy.

preflop call sucks. 3 bet or fold.

as played, I'd prolly bet like 350.

What exact hand range are you representing with a river bet?
And has V1 seen you play a similar range this way before?

As either villain, I'd put you on a pretty narrow value betting range on the river: 87, 86 and maaaybe A5. I'd incorrectly eliminate 95s.

I have a feeling one of the villains is going to snap call a small/medium size bet here pretty often. Therefore I think you have to bet the river biggish. Does a big river bet sizing fit into your value betting history with V1 with this type of board and with the way the hand played out? If not, I'd probably curse at myself for playing the hand this way and not compound my mistake on the river and check it back.

If you check and always lose the hand, your EV is what? -$350? But since you'll sometimes win after checking, I'd guess your EV is closer to ~ -$100 if you check.

If you bet, I think most posters including me would advocate biggish. Let's say you bet $700. If my math is right, break even is you getting called about 60% of the time. Before I did the math 60% was the low range of what I thought the call % was. Maybe I'm wrong and it's lower and you only get called ~ 40%. You'd be able to estimate better than us.

^^its very ez for him to have 5x and can be betting two pair/sets for value depending on sizing 910 also possible

I think checking on river has an EV of 0.

Maybe I'm making the wrong assumptions. Here's what I'm assuming. Hero is viewed as decent to good by V1. If hero always plays T6s there as he stated, that's enough to know that hero is viewed as lag or very lag. V1 is a good hand reader. Would a decent lag play a 5 plus a pair so passively - no. Would a good lag play a flopped straight this way - no.

So that eliminates [85, 75, 65, 54 and 53]. Would a lag play 55 or A5 this way...not very often but perhaps some of the time for balance. We also have to discount 87 and 86 as many lags would put in a raise somewhere along the lines with those hands. Since V1 knows hero is lag, I think I need to correct my first post and put 95s back into hands that hero could have and hence makes a probable river value bet range of [95, and a discounted 87, 86, 55 and A5].

9T? Uhhhh, I guess. I just don't see a competent lag playing two overs and a gut shot so passively. And if I'm villain and hero shows up with trash like T5, J5, Q5, K5 or Q8, Q7, Q6, Q4, I just tap the felt and make a few easy adjustments and profit. Maybe I'm all wrong about how this hand was played and it's fine and there are plenty of 5's in a good hero's range. Not digging it at the moment though.

well technically its +ev some nonzero amount, we could have the best hand once in a while.

3bet/fold pre.

What is your plan postflop when you called pre?

I would raise flop if I wanted continue in the hand. Are you hoping for 10 or the board to pair? You have no bluff outs. The flop texture is far too strong. You have a terrible image. So repping over cards on later streets are not good plays for your image. You will probably say I will rep a straight on later streets. But I doubt it.

Ott please tell me your plan for the river after calling? What are you folding out otr?

given the passive line/flop call turn call/ by you it seems like that the 8 on the river would hit your range pretty hard, 78,68, and all your 5's.

I think 5's are credible because of turn action. Flatting the raise in position makes sense to keep villain 2 in as opposed to 4 betting and blowing the pot up. It seems to make sense taking a passive line here against 2 guys, one being an unknown.

I think a bet of ~$650 will be tough for vill 1 to call w/ one pair. With history he's gotta know your button range pre is super wide.

no no no i think you misunderstood me


i was asking if you could be vbetting thin here with a widerish range than just 5x hands, and if those hands are in your perceived range (by villain) on the turn.


i mean, HU, this is an auto bet.

3way i am less inclined.

I could have 67, 78 or 88. Those hands I am often going to raise the flop or fold turn a decent amount. This board just doesn't offer many possibilities to v-bet thin making a river bet seem pretty polarizing I guess. I also can't have a pair+5 because I am obviously raising this flop.
In hindsight I think this is a great spot for me to merge, although I obviously should have a better hand than I have

Grunch: if I had 'bad thoughts' and wanted to continue turn, which seems fine, I'd much prefer c3b turn over calling. The leader will probably call next to never, and considering how V2 just called a very small lead on the flop he isn't likely to have a set+. Your overcall on flop + c3b on turn looks incred strong and should make any one pair (and some 2 pair) hands fold. Make it 600 imo