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5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep 5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep

09-14-2011 , 01:48 AM
Game is really soft. A couple of big fish, couple of nits, and a bunch of loose passives who aren't cognizant of stack sizes at all. Main villain in the hand is the most aggro player at the table besides me. I've seen him limp/reraise TT/JJ/AQ 200 bbs effective which is important to the hand. He's been showing since he has a buddy at the table. he limps a ton pre, calls raises really wide from all positions etc. He check/calls tp and weak draws but is an insta c/r monsters and FDs type of post flop LAG Asian.

I bought in for max 1500 and chipped up when I coolered a fish in a 3bet pot when I had AA and c/b an A72cc flop and stacked his JJ on a Jh turn. Fired two barrels in a limped pot with two overs and gs and gave up on the river on a bad card but my high card won when a LOP c/b his missed SD. Otherwise I've been mad card dead and haven't shown anything stupid.

I have 3k and main villain covers. A few folds and a bad LOP makes it 30 one off the HJ, V flats quickly in the CO, I make it 120 on the BU with A 9 . Super horrible mega fish old Russian lady calls the 120 cold from the SB, BB folds, LOP raiser calls, CO makes it 420, I think for a bit and make it a cool 1,000 cause **** him that's why. I even did some cool reverse tells while raising like knocking a stack of chips over and bobbin my head to the music on my iPod. Fish folds, PFR folds. Villain obviously is not happy about the 5ball and pounds chips into the felt while shuffling. Doesn't look like an act FWIW. He thinks for a minute and flats.

Flop is K T 2 with a pot of 2,240 and I have a pot sized jam left in my stack

Villain checks, I think for about 45 seconds and c/b

Turn is 7

Villain snap checks, I think for about 45 seconds and jam.

Thoughts on all streets etc.
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-14-2011 , 06:12 AM
Pre: 3bet is okish but I really dont like 3betting with weak, non-suited Axo since you will ~never flop good and will have to risk alot of your stack postflop to win the pot since fish generally dont like folding. Really like the 5bet because of CO having a history of limp/raising with 1010/aq ish hands.

Flop: I think after villain called the 5bet his range is heavily weighted towards QQ/JJ/AQs/AK/ and maybe 1010. The question is whats the best way too rep AA/KK/AK therefore I like the checkback on the flop

Turn: Once it gets checked too you once again you definately have too bet. I however would prefer a bet of ~1300 instead of a shove. I think this looks stronger + it gives you a chance too fold if villain somehow is setting you up.
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-14-2011 , 07:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badb19
Pre: 3bet is okish but I really dont like 3betting with weak, non-suited Axo since you will ~never flop good and will have to risk alot of your stack postflop to win the pot since fish generally dont like folding. Really like the 5bet because of CO having a history of limp/raising with 1010/aq ish hands.

Flop: I think after villain called the 5bet his range is heavily weighted towards QQ/JJ/AQs/AK/ and maybe 1010. The question is whats the best way too rep AA/KK/AK therefore I like the checkback on the flop

Turn: Once it gets checked too you once again you definately have too bet. I however would prefer a bet of ~1300 instead of a shove. I think this looks stronger + it gives you a chance too fold if villain somehow is setting you up.
+1
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-14-2011 , 08:18 AM
stop using c/b. it confuses the hell out of me

I think this hand is a "you have to be there" type hand
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-14-2011 , 01:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rakes
stop using c/b. it confuses the hell out of me

I think this hand is a "you have to be there" type hand
+1, and +1.
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-14-2011 , 01:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bcapped
+1, and +1.
Agree with this. The 5b is totally read dependent and is the key to the hand so hard to argue with your line once you make that play. Smells like he snapped you off with JJ though which sux.
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-14-2011 , 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catch thirtythree
cause **** him that's why.
Best line in this hand.

As for the flop/turn play, I don't think it really matters what the best way to rep AA/KK/AK is. I don't think anything you do is gonna convince him to fold QQ/JJ/ATs more often because you SPR is 1. I think you should just bet ~$1000 on the flop.
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-14-2011 , 02:39 PM
What do people think villain's range is for quasi-limp-reraising and then calling a 5-bet, without more information? What percentage of his quasi-limp-reraise range calls the 5-bet with about 4.1:1 implied odds? It sounds like most people think it is almost all of it.

Agree you probably had to be there and why not bet less than pot on the turn.
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-14-2011 , 02:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catch thirtythree
Main villain in the hand is the most aggro player at the table besides me. I've seen him limp/reraise TT/JJ/AQ 200 bbs effective which is important to the hand. He's been showing since he has a buddy at the table. he limps a ton pre, calls raises really wide from all positions etc. He check/calls tp and weak draws but is an insta c/r monsters and FDs type of post flop LAG Asian.
Why are these live villain descriptions always so confusing? He is the most aggro player but he limps a ton and calls really wide from all positions? How much more passive can the other guys be? He is postflop aggresive (despite his weak ranges) but only checkraises monsters and FD's? Does this mean he just ran hot? And then he is also "loose" postflop (guess that means he doesnt need much to continue). Since he cant have that many monsters+FD's to c/r but still is very aggresive and plays very weak ranges, does this mean he donkbets a ton / calls bets on the flop to lead the turn? Well, at least he isn't doing this with top pair, monsters and FD's....

If I reread this twice I would probably describe this villain as being a huge whale/spazz who limps or calls all kinds of trash from every position with the added bizzare tendency of turning valuable hands like TT into limp reraise bluffs, because he probably does not like to fold anything pre. Postflop he plays straight forward by calling down with pairs and raising his strong hands. Also he might have the tendency to fire when checked to or donkbet with hands that probably do not make a lot of sense and are very weak. So basically this guy plays like the legendary online fish scout.

And in that case the simple answer would be: Why would you ever try to bluff this guy? Especially preflop. Especially for 300 BB. Edit: and you also have the megafish lady behind you.
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-14-2011 , 04:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IronedSheik
Agree you probably had to be there and why not bet less than pot on the turn.
Well the argument against betting smaller on the turn is that it gives your opponent the chance to rebluff you (or attempt to bluff with a hand that is actually better than yours like 88 or AQ).
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-14-2011 , 04:38 PM
You said villain calls a lot pre, but how often does he make hero/spewy calls post flop? I guess I'm saying that there's a good chance he called oop with 99 'to see if an A/K flops' and even though it did he will still make a frustrated call cause **** you that's why. With a 1500 cap on the game and really bad deepstack players, I would be protecting that 3k stack and just playing a lot of hands ip against the whales.
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-14-2011 , 05:04 PM
Cause **** you that's why is a good justification for anything in poker!! I think a shove looks scarier to a live player than betting smaller IMO what has been your experience with this? I think his range for flatting the 5bet is AK/QQ/AQ/TT/JJ and occasionally something dumb like 9Ts or TJs. Is it sane to expect him to fold QQ/JJ/AQ? I'm really positive he never flats with AA/KK and just 6 bets all in.

Also, I was wearing an American Psycho shirt at the time. Does that make him more likely to hero?
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-14-2011 , 08:43 PM
I'm not sure how reverse your reverse tells actually were... Stacks are real awkward for a 5-bet with this hand against this villain. I like fold to the 4-bet.

As played, bet flop 1250 and that was an excellent movie obv.
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-15-2011 , 12:06 AM
When you made your ***** you small 5b pf I'm sure you didn't actually expect this type of Villain to fold. What was your plan post flop? Did you change the plan during your 45 second think? Interesting hand. . .but does sound pretty situation specific.
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-15-2011 , 12:17 AM
I actually did expect him to fold a lot pre considering my normal image, his wider than an avg live players range in a backraise spot and the fact that he's probably never seen a 5 bet bluff this deep ever
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-15-2011 , 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catch thirtythree
I actually did expect him to fold a lot pre considering my normal image, his wider than an avg live players range in a backraise spot and the fact that he's probably never seen a 5 bet bluff this deep ever
If that's the case, then it sounds like your plan is to get him fold (even post-flop), So. . . once he calls, I can't see why you would check back the flop with these stack sizes. This certainly seems like a flop that would/could hit you hard. I'd bomb the flop (maximum pressure) and pray. With these dynamics I think you're more likely to get looked up on turn or river when you check back flop. Plus you're giving him another free card when no free card will really help you that much, no?

Not quite sure about the American Psycho shirt--probably depends on the rest of your physical presentation--how do you come across, other than the Psycho shirt?

Also, agree with DGAF on the reverse tells. Why do you think they were "reverse"? Is it because you are trying to look "weak" when you actually are weak?

Last edited by Finister18; 09-15-2011 at 01:51 PM.
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-15-2011 , 02:13 PM
I guess I didnt say that right. I was trying to appear like I had a ****in monster and was excited. That's what I meant by the reverse tells. As far as post flop, I think checking back flop and then jamming turn looks stronger/like a trap. If he puts me on a bluff somehow I think he heros flop way easier than the turn. I mean that's just an assumption but thats what I tried to accomplish. I give up the turn on any coordinated card but the 7 is so innocuos that I should continue then with him checking twice
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-15-2011 , 02:34 PM
After you 5bet pre (vs a guy who plays TT+,AQ+ like this), there's not much to do on these kind of boards (somehow bluff it in).

Checking back flop is fine. Betting small is okay too. Not sure whats optimal if you have AK+ , would be villain dependent.

On turn shoving or betting small to shove river is the only consideration, and if this a standard live player I think shoving is fine.

I really don't like the 5bet pre though.
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-15-2011 , 02:39 PM
Also, pre is a bit too much fps, especially when you're doing it w A9o and a mentality of "cause **** him that's why", knowing full well his range is TT+,AQ+
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-15-2011 , 02:44 PM
I would play AK+ this way too post flop on this dry texture. I play this hand the same way if I had AA instead of A9o.

Results:

Spoiler:
He went into the tank for 3 minutes and called me with QQ. I binked the A on the river obv and he blows a gasket. Table thinks I'm insane. An hour later I flop a garbage two pair out of the BB in a limped pot and win a stack from top pair 5 kicker on a flush draw board. Poker's fun
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-19-2011 , 08:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catch thirtythree
I would play AK+ this way too post flop on this dry texture. I play this hand the same way if I had AA instead of A9o.

Results:

Spoiler:
He went into the tank for 3 minutes and called me with QQ. I binked the A on the river obv and he blows a gasket. Table thinks I'm insane. An hour later I flop a garbage two pair out of the BB in a limped pot and win a stack from top pair 5 kicker on a flush draw board. Poker's fun
probably a leak if you always play A9o just like AK and AA here... the question isn't whether you are balanced or not, the question is whether this guy will actually fold, and what he will fold.

honestly, i feel like this hand is total spew. i feel like this guy wants to be a hero from your description that he was showing his friend his hands, and how he is playing unorthodox and very loose. sure he can also make a hero fold, but i wouldn't count on it... that's why you'd play AA and AK like that because you think he might call. not a great idea to try bluffing the fish, or at least this fish.
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-20-2011 , 09:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by catch thirtythree
I would play AK+ this way too post flop on this dry texture. I play this hand the same way if I had AA instead of A9o.

Results:

Spoiler:
He went into the tank for 3 minutes and called me with QQ. I binked the A on the river obv and he blows a gasket. Table thinks I'm insane. An hour later I flop a garbage two pair out of the BB in a limped pot and win a stack from top pair 5 kicker on a flush draw board. Poker's fun
It surely is when you run good like this.
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-20-2011 , 10:06 PM
Quote:
Game is really soft. A couple of big fish, couple of nits, and a bunch of loose passives who aren't cognizant of stack sizes at all.
jeez dude too much FPS your on a sick soft table there is no point in this crap which probably even in a vacuum -EV imo, and being on a soft table is soooo unnecessary.

Also given your statement
Quote:
I think for a bit and make it a cool 1,000 cause **** him that's why.
you probably have some ego at the tables, It's best to just drop the ego imo, Altho most poker players have ego's

You assume that is Asian dude has a fold button but it probably hasn't occurred to you that he is just a fish.
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-20-2011 , 11:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sknight
You said villain calls a lot pre, but how often does he make hero/spewy calls post flop? I guess I'm saying that there's a good chance he called oop with 99 'to see if an A/K flops' and even though it did he will still make a frustrated call cause **** you that's why. With a 1500 cap on the game and really bad deepstack players, I would be protecting that 3k stack and just playing a lot of hands ip against the whales.
I like the point here about the 1500 cap and all the bad deepstack players.
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote
09-21-2011 , 04:48 PM
I cannot say i like the 5 bet. He has to think the old lady is calling often which makes his range a bit stronger.

After the flop, i kind of like the chk back although if the turn brings a flush draw I would not shove then. As played i think it may be ok with this board although i can see him snapping with JJ since he is basically a fish that prolly hates to fold.
5/10 Live: Line check on 5 bet bluff 300 bbs deep Quote

      
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