Hi folks. Wanted to post a hand from Saturday's session.

Some background: Hero and Villain have been playing all day together, from the must move first table to the main game which is where this hand takes place. All in all, we have played around 7 hours together and Hero has won a few good sized pots off of villain (I hadn't seen this guy at FW before today). Hero is running like the Sun, having flopped 5 sets so far on the day (all were good), getting AA vs. KK all in OTF for $1500, hitting many draws...just a ridonkulous session of good luck/OK play.

Villain OTOH, a seemingly solid TAG/competent player, has dragged very few pots all day, has been recently showing signs of getting frustrated and has begun to play somewhat more loosely than earlier in the day. Wouldn't classify him as on tilt per se and he hasn't done/shown down anything crazy, but just seems to be a bit more active than earlier. OK, on to the hand:

Villain has around $2600 in front, Hero covers the table.

Hero is in the SB with KK. 3 limpers to Villain who also limps from the hijack, CO folds, button calls. Hero makes it $90 to go, BB folds and everyone but Villain also folds (anyone raise more/less here given stacks and position? Hero always questions his bet sizing...one of his weak spots).

Hero has villain on a wide range at this point including all small pairs, suited hands, even marginal Broadway hands etc 260 deep.

Flop ($230)
A T 5

Hero c-bets $125 and villain quickly calls. From my viewpoint, this doesn't narrow his range all that much even with the Ace out there as it has seemed Villain has been willing to float most of the day when in position.

Turn ($480)
A T 5 7

Hero bets $240 (sizing thoughts?). Villain contemplates for around 30 seconds and raises to $600. Villain has around $1800 left.

Hero?

Thoughts on all streets are welcome.

Thanks,

Shorn

Preflop sizing seems fine to me.

This is more of a stylistic difference but I like c-betting like $75 in spots like this with my entire range. I think it is an effective sizing on ace high boards. That said I think $125 is fine.

On the turn I much prefer checking and reevaluating here, probably calling a turn bet and soul-reading river (mostly folding I guess).

As played, just fold. You've been terrorizing the table so he's less likely to make a big move vs. you. He has a set here a lot.

I like the way you played the hand, turn is fold. I am sure he can sometimes have a fd here but probably more likely to just call you. Seems like he wants a call from ak, not really sure if that small turn raise is standard.

Turn check thought is interesting. Are you not afraid of villain checking behind and letting a FD get a fee card or is that less relevant if you have to b/f here anyway? Or are you calling a turn barrell and playing poker on the river?

From your description of Villain I can't see him having less than 2 pair (or maybe AJ if he is tilting a bit) in this spot.

I think the fact that we're reasonably often behind here mitigates the fact that he might check behind a flush draw on the turn. Besides, if we bet the turn and he calls with a flush draw, we could be facing an ever tougher decision on the river in a bigger pot when he could easily bet both an ace and a missed flush on the river.

Also, I think he will stab at it on the turn with a flush draw a reasonable amount of the time. He might even check down a weak ace and only bet his bluffs and sets/two pair.

I guess it just boils down to me thinking that we don't have enough equity when called on the turn to value bet.

+1. chk/calling turn for sure, chk/soulread river for reasons stated above.

I also find the smaller cbet an interesting option.

Minor points, I raise slightly more pre oop, 100-110. My reasoning is that it may protect us more from getting flatted multiway oop, and it is also good for value against those who do decide to flat. If they are going to flat 90 way behind, then might as well magnify their mistake.

Unless your plan for betting the turn again was to get villain to spaz i don't get it. I think everyone is going to tell you to fold, but He's repping so ridiculously narrow that I'm calling turn and check/soulreading river.

I'd prob check the flop to avoid getting raised by draws,2 pr/55 and to induce bluffs from villan. If he checks behind I'd be betting two streets for value.....I'm fine with betting the flop vs the nittiest of nits, but against competent opponents Id rather check

Given the game dynamic you describe and the villain you describe, I'd fold to that raise. Main reason; from what you said, it seems villain perceives you as playing ABC poker, and from his perspective probably thinks it very likely you have a hand like AK or AQ or AJ, so I feel he'd be much less likely to be trying to bluff you here. Plus that small raise amount just seems like he wants a call.

I'd expect to see him with a set or Ax for two-pair (don't know if he is that loose or not). But yeah, I'd expect to be beat.

I like pre and flop. I c/c or c/f turn depending on how you think frustration is affecting villain. Hard to see him having something like AQ/AJ given his preflop limp. So probably c/c turn as I think his pf action takes a bunch of possible strong hands out of his current range.

As played, I think folding is standard. However, what do people think about shoving the turn as played? You can easily have all the nutted hands. You probably aren't doing this with AK this deep. So if villain's range here is air, set of 77, set of 66 and a bunch of 2pr/FDs, doesn't this force him to lay down everything except the sets? Like if he has A6s, what can he beat after you take this line?

This was a thought of mine as well. How much of villain's range needs to be draws that we beat and/or Ax hands that he may fold in order to take this aggressive line? That is what I struggled with most at the time as although villain played his hand like a set, there weren't too many sets out there that made sense to me (and, as we know, sets are extremely hard to make).

Maybe I am missing something and this is just an auto fold for the most part and a shove may be to FPSy. But I am glad someone else brought it up as a potential play.

Problem with shoving is that we are repping as narrow as he is already with the initial lead on the turn, making it even stronger for him to raise us there. Its more often a set here.

Its a weird scenario that doesn't come up often enough for him to be going crazy and making a move. I mean your whole line to this point, in conjuction with your position, is ridiculously strong. Any decent player knows your range for raising is small pre, the same on the flop, but far smaller on the turn, weighted heavily toward value hands.

Even if he's going nuts with a combo draw he picked up on the turn he's not folding to a shove. Not enough pure bluffs to give us folds imo. His raise/folding range is very tiny.

Interesting. So normally you wouldn't be b/fing JJ+, AK here on the turn (exception of AA ldo)? That was what caused me to think maybe he could be making a move on the 7 which looked pretty innocuous. I guess maybe the question is what % of my range is value bets and what are b/f's from villain's perspective and does he think he can get me to lay down most of my range with a raise. That is where I am struggling here.

That's assuming that villain is taking this line as a pure bluff. In this situation, I just don't see it very often. The hands that you're ahead of on the turn that he MAY do this with still have plenty of equity. You're roughly a 3 to 2 fav. against those hands, and drawing practically dead to all of his value hands, which I think must be weighted more heavily here.

I see your point about the hands we MIGHT b/f here sometimes (don't think we should for reasons later stated). I didn't take those enough into consideration, but still lfeel like we are leveling ourselves here into thinking he gets to this point in the hand, given the action already (and overall situation), and is making a move.

We are just in a tough spot on the turn oop. We shouldn't be leading there for value because it's way too thin and exploitable. We shouldn't be bluffing there because we have considerable showdown value.

It's easier to play the hand as a chk/call, chk/soulread river. Or if turn goes chk/chk, plan to chk/call a lot of rivers (leading here would be too thin as well, I think).

Don't worry about being unbalanced on the turn with your leading range only being hands that want to get it in. This situation doesn't come up enough for anyone to exploit it.

OK, thanks. This makes a lot of sense and I think i get it now. I think the chk/call turn, chk/soulread river line is a much better one. I was too concerned about the draws in villain's hand, didn't want to give a free card, and consequently set myself up for a b/f line and then began to question it afterwards. Basically, by betting I let villain fold out almost my entire range with his raise (except AA, AT, TT), losing whatever equity I had in the pot whereas I could have check-called a smaller bet and then chk/soul read the river, espeically if the draw didn't get there. That seems like a more effective line in this spot.

Thanks for all the input.

Shorn

Np. Thanks for sharing the hand. I got a lot out of the discussion.

I'm sure villain realizes that because of preflop his hand looks suspicious and narrow. So if you haven't played many spots like this with him before I doubt he is ever bluffing. Mediocre players will never bluff in spots like this because they feel like they can't rep. much, which of course makes his call preflop pretty meh unless you are a huge station or he's planning on repping every low connected flop.

This is a good point too and we haven't played any spots like this together. What really gave me pause was villain's temperament since he had been having a tough day and I wasn't sure if it affected his play to the degree that he would be looking to make a move here. I would classify him as solid though and not mediocre despite my small sample size...not sure if that makes a difference. But I guess the main point is that this is a spot where even if I am right and he is making a move with a draw, he still has pretty good equity and most likely is not folding to a shove, so without any FE that play loses a lot of its value.

Check flop. As played... DO NOT GO ALL IN, YOU WILL ONLY BENEFICIALLY FOLD OUT A BLUFF-CATCHER WHICH HE WOULD NEVER PLAY THIS WAY.

(all caps felt good)

I'm not sure if I like checking the flop, although it is an interesting option.

DGAF, can you give your thought process for that?

Is it basically just to check all our range here and let him value own himself throughout the hand?

The few times we have 1010,AA are we cutting him off on the turn and river then (nonhearts?)

Can't we expect villain to bet flop and turn with flush draws here, b/c we have 'announced our hand.' (A good reason to do it with our whole range oop)?

So are we calling twice, folding river (almost always) with JJ-KK on non-heart rivers?

I think betting would be better against nitty straightforward opponents, but anyone who is capable/tilting/etc Id rather c/c. We dont wanna get raised against fl draws/combo draws OTF, and we're really lost on the turn if we're value betting or bluffing. We also allow him to bluff by checking, and I think alot of his value range won't be going for 3 streets......the only issue we present by checking is our hand is fairly face up, but whatever - we have the best hand (in our mind), we cant bluff better, and villan is capable of bluffing so c/c makes sense.

Preflop too small for me with villains who have position and we are deep. I would go to $140-$150 easily since it is so common for them to “see the flop” and we play deep OOP after that with KK. And KK usually turns into a sticky hand to play postflop OOP deep. The flop either has an A or it has straighted cards below it. (much of the time) So its much better to narrow the villain range much tighter in this spot.

(Taking the free $60 or so is not the worst thing that can happen here)

Like the cbet, would rather see a check on the turn since he will most likely take free turns with Tx and draws – but bet Ax. He also has to worry about a big check raise so he should be fairly SF. When these villains limp and call a big iso raise, then call a cbet on Axx flop, he will have Ax a ton. I wont be trying to push him off it. Not in this hand anyhow.

I would start checking down turn and then make a small riverbet to get called by a Tx hand if he checked turn back. Charging draws would not be a major concern of mine here.

AP i easily fold on turn. Betting the turn is just not profitable i dont think here.