BB in this hand is the same villain from here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...42/?highlight=

Button- Super passive mawg and almost never raises, a lot of limping, doesn't seem to know what he is doing and is clearly a rec. 2500ish

SB-Hero TAG covers- Has been 3! and squeezed by BB villain 4 times throughout the last couple days while BB was ip and has folded every time.

BB- euro overly aggressive 2200ish -Appeared to be calling less than he has in the past the last few days. Seems like he has tighted up his game a bit since the last 2p2 hand i posted but still appears to be 3! often vs others and myself. Last time v 3! me a not so good player called his 3! oop after calling my open and check called his cbet and then bet river and he folded. He may be a bit tilted/upset.

The game has been playing very passively, lots of limping. I don't think I have 3! at this table at all yet.

Folds to button who doesn't raise his button often and raises to 35, hero has AA...

Hero thinks about flatting w/AA in the sb b/c he thinks that the BB is 3! here very often but also considers a 3!....

I do not know how button will react to the 3! but it seems safe to say that because he is so passive he would probably call my 3! as well as call the BB if he were to 3!. Is this a spot you would flat to induce a squeeze from BB or are we better off just 3! because we know button is going to most likely come along? If we do decide to flat in the sb, would you do so to 4!? As far as the BB's reaction to our 4! if we decide to do so, I am not really sure. I have not done anything like this yet but he knows I know hes been 3! me light so there is a chance he could level himself and go bananas like in the hand where he had 77 but could easily just fold since he 3! so wide and I havent done much to show him I made any type of adjustment.


What does everyone think?

I probably would have flatted the original open in the QQ hand.

It's very tempting to flat AA in this scenario.

Relevant question, do chops occur in this game?

In a perfect world you'd be able to flat/5! this pre, but it really shouldn't register as a good squeeze spot in the first place for BB.

3 bet clear as day - aim for 2-3 streets vs btns face up range - BB should be aware of the dynamic, perhaps he has some flatting mistakes here (which could influence a 4! from KK+ otb)

Chops do occur. I didn't really consider flatting the utg open in the QQ hand. I just felt he was raising so much, was way too active and didn't have a big fold button even if I were to 3!. At what stack depth would you not consider flatting>3! with QQ or is it not even mostly about depth?

After seeing him play more, he really seems to spew pretty hard pretty often. He tilts really badly, 3! way too much and has a hard time folding when people make nutted raises. Unsure if he makes bundles or loses a ton but other players I talk to say that he dumps serious money fwiw but who knows how accurate that is.

Auto 3bet.... Btn should have a good hand to continue. I would choose larger sizing as well like 150

V should be noticing that btn does not raise much and I doubt he would light 3betting very often in this spot.

Thats a very good point but I am not sure if he views it as a bad spot because of the narrow range of the button. I shouldve mentioned before, BB recently came from must move and might not have been at the table long enough to understand buttons range here. That, and he doesnt pay attention at the table often so he may not be in tune with gameflow or buttons tendencies. There is a very good chance he views this on a shallow level such as - button raises to 3.5x, sb who folds to my 3!/squeezes all the time flats etc.-

Well if that's the case, then 3 betting should maximize EV considering his calling and resqueezing frequencies may be immune to game dynamics.

I wouldn't go as far to say that his frequencies for different actions are immune to game dynamics, but because of his limited exposure to the dynamics he may not be as familiar with them as myself or other players since I have been at the table longer.

He has squeezed a couple times at this table getting folds up until the last time he did it unsuccessfully.

What resqueezing?

It's not about stack depth, I just think QQ plays well as a flat in a FR game from an EP open with us ip. Not being mubs or anything, on the contrary, I don't plan on folding most runs. As another example I'd probably happily 3b ATs in the same spot.

I used to do this naturally, then as I "learned" more about poker I started 3b'ing more and working more on my range, lately I've gone back to the more passive route and I like it.

FWIW, the exceptional player in my pool we've discussed previously, he flats QQ at an incredibly high frequency.

Heh, this is why I asked about chops. Many people don't realize but in a game where chops occur regularly a btn raise-first-in range is actually pretty strong. Don't see it at 5/10 but at 2/5 I mean I see people open fold AKs and say "I'll let you guys have it" often enough that it doesn't surprise me anymore.

So if he was a good player and had good table awareness I'd say he'd 3bet light a lot less often here.

However, as further described, there's no way I'm not flatting this hand in this spot. I would flat and pray that BB doesn't notice my raging boner at the dream situation we've been given.

Interesting that you would 3! ATs in the same spot in the QQ hand. What else are you 3! there?

In this hand, are you flatting the button open to induce a 3! from bb to then 4! regardless of whether button calls/folds? If I am flatting the open to induce a 3! from the bb, and the button calls the bbs 3!, I think i am definitely going to 4!. If button folds, i think I am still probably 4! but flatting the squeeze might not be so bad either.

This info should be in OP.

I don't hate a flat here but I'd still just 3b. BB is going to overcall way more than 3b no matter how aggro he is, and given info about BTN that he is likely relatively strong I'd rather not let him off the hook to chase after BB.

Also think BB can 4b this spot pretty often with a lot of hands anyway, not as wide as he 3b obviously but definitely still a lot more hands than he might ordinarily 4b because he has room to level himself thinking that you're raising lighter because you don't want to get squeezed (which you should be), depending how he thinks you're adjusting.

In reference to flatting premiums when deep/vs ep ranges I saw this hand happen at this table before a bunch of really good 5/10 -10/20 regs left.

Same BB in op opens to 35 utg (3k), solid pro (covers) flats utg+1, another solid pro (2500) flats utg+2, 3 other rec's flat. Board runs out AJJ23 and checks around each street. UTG had KK, UTG +1 had QQ, utg +2 had KK.

Everyone was just laughing. Still seemed odd to me but I am pretty inexperienced with deep stack play so my opinion doesn't mean much. Should KK from UTG+2 be 3! or is flatting completely fine here?

Not sure I agree with the last part but i dont really know. You are saying in order to avoid being squeezed by BB I should be squeezing other v's more often? I dont know if I can get on board with that. I feel like fear of being squeezed by v should not make me 3! XX more often vs another villain just to avoid being squeezed.

I agree I should have included other reads in the OP, but I forgot. Its probably better that way though. Now in order for someone to post intelligently they need to read the whole thread. Downside, I waste some time initially painting the proper picture but at what point does my opinion of the action cross the line of a biased opinion of a spot? I was trying to give info w/o alluding to what I did and keep it to more tangible reads. I do think you are right though, this definitely should've been included.

The info you give should simply be what you think should have been available to you at the time you had to make a decision. For ex. if BTN went on to open the next 20 hands when it folded to him every time then still don't include that because that's not what you knew at this point. Knowing the BB just moved to the table and is therefore not likely to have made the same adjustments vs BTN as you is important though and obv something you know.

When you have a squeeze happy villain acting behind you it becomes much less profitable to call because you're going to have to fold to a squeeze or play out of position against it pretty often and your range is generally weakened by the initial call (weakening your 3b range by flatting premiums vs BTN open or eliminating your 3b range altogether in order to protect your call range are both pretty crappy options).

The correct adjustment, especially SB vs BTN is to just fold some of the worse hands you'd call with and 3b everything you want to play.

It's what you'd imagine it to be, a level where you might open-4bet or cold 4bet light over a traditionally light 3bet squeeze. It doesn't really apply to BVB, so I was just using the term very loosely to convey Vs potential state of mind where he would be pining to mistakenly outplay both of you more often with more hands.

I get it but I still don't think I like it. For example, in this spot, knowing BB is squeezing wide, and knowing what we think we know about the buttons opening range, what range are you 3! or flatting otb with the intention of calling or 4!/ a BB squeeze if he chooses to do so?

In this spot, 3! any hand I want to play when i feel like I dont have much FE just to avoid being squeezed out by bb seems pretty bad to me.

In my mind thinking about it I just cant really quantify how I would answer that question. Add that to the fact that we are deep and oop. Can you explain your pov further for me? What hands would you want to play here that would lead you to wanting to 3! to avoid being squeezed?

55+,ATs+,A5s-A3s,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,AJo+ might toss QTs 89s 76s and A3s vs described BTN sometimes. Folding everything else.

I'm assuming you mean in the SB not OTB? If this was us OTB vs CO then I'd still have hands I call with, although I'd still fold the most marginal ones because the EV that makes them slightly profitably will be lost when I have to just fold to a BB squeeze more often than normal. I wouldn't have a 4b calling range here, would just be 5b/fold.

I think a key realization is that in the SB you're going to forfeit equity by playing out of position, which makes calling and getting squeezed by the BB really really terrible for you. It's not even a great outcome when you call and BB calls and you're then playing OOP vs 2 players - really it just benefits BB more than anyone else when you have a wide calling range here. Obviously you have AA so you don't give a **** here but this is all in terms of your range in general.

I had an idea of what it means I meant why you brought it up because I didnt mention anything about a 4! dynamic.

The thing is that at a table with several very good players and a few fish, an UTG open from a good player is going to be fairly strong, and an UTG+1 flat is also very strong. I think from UTG+2 spot QQ would be a pretty clear flat but what do I know.

Think about what they are doing. 1) they are strengthening their flatting range (so they don't always have 77 or JTs when they flat and 2) they are setting themselves up for a sick flat/4b spot. 3) they are playing their hand's pair value. KK is still going to be a very strong hand post flop

Understand that they aren't flatting out of mubsiness, they are flatting bc it is the best way to play their ranges. (I think?)

I'm not sure what snowie or pio whatever do but I do know the few good online posters that still post sometimes post hh where they flat premiums, mostly when ep facing an UTG raise.

Conventional wisdom is that AA-QQ are the best hands in poker, and you should put as much money in the pot as possible with them. Which of course isn't wrong. So who knows man.

Don't go auto-flatting kings now, lol.

The reason I said 3b ATs is because I don't mind getting 4b when I have ATs. I choose ATs over AJo or A4s bc in live poker we get flatted more so I still prefer some playability.

I can't imagine me 3! that wide from the sb in this spot to be a good idea. Seems like it would be a huge mistake to 3! that wide in general live. If you are really good then I cant really say if your post flop game is super strong but I know that If I were to 3! that wide things would not end well for me. I understand in theory this is what you would do but in practice have you actually 3b this wide in FR live with this range under even remotely similar(being squeezed often) circumstances?

In this hand, the idea that we are just as likely to induce a 4b by 3betting is silly. There's just no way that's true. When we 3b we give BB the one chance to not totally spew here with any two napkins. If we had a previous dynamic with him cold 4betting our 3bs like at any noticeable clip, maybe.

And yes we 4b regardless of buttons action. To a larger sizing I think.

FWIW the idea that we should be flatting way less here and 3betting more of our continuing range (but simply just having a tighter range altogether) is correct. But it's correct because BB is going to squeeze here a ton. Which means we can flat AA and print da monies

UTG +2 had KK not QQ. Not sure if you misread or I am misunderstanding your post. I understand why they might but I thought they were flatting because of the solid reg on reg depth, less so because of the ep raise. It wouldve been nice if someone raised so I couldve seen the deep premium ep flats playout. I understand I shouldn't be auto flatting kings but for the first time I am playing a decent amount of 300 bb poker and I just dont have any experience and feel like I am missing out on a lot.

If everyone is 100bb deep, are you still flatting utg +2 w/KK?

I understand in theory but with a tight button who most likely wont be folding to a 3!, as wide as papa is recommending here seems bad to me because we are getting called by the button very often and don't have much FE.
How wide are you 3! here?

I'd look to my left and try to get a read from BB. If he's ready to fold, then this discussion is moot. If he looks engaged, I think some gamesmanship is worth considering. I'd also request a seat change button and get position on BB.

Overall, I think this is more a straight value play against the button. I'd focus on maximizing value from him. He's super passive, meaning you'll want to 3! and take the lead on betting.

I 3b a little wider than this if BTN is unknown and BB is good but I play pretty laggy. I don't think that range is bad vs described BTN, probably depends on how tight exactly you do think his opening range is. To me it seems like there might be a disconnect in how tight we're viewing BTN's opening range, I don't think it's going to be as nitty as you make it out to be. I often sit w/ friends who I consider very solid to catch up or w/e and they'll be sitting next to me so yeah. This is also pretty standard online strategy afaik.

I mean it depends on if you think BB is good or not and whether he thinks you're good or not. This discussion has derailed a bit but yeah regardless of what you're actually doing, if BB is good and perceives you as good then he may think you'd adjust in this manner give or take some % of hands (probably somewhat close to my range given he doesn't know about BTN) and will be incentivized to 4b lighter than he normally would. Obviously he's not going to 4b nearly as wide as he will 3b, but I still think 3b'ing AA here is a hell of a lot better than flatting.

I really like how BB played the other hand you posted so I tend to think he's probably pretty good.