Doesn't apply whatsoever to this spot.

My 4+ range is pretty narrow in this action.. Some aks, qq+ (qq i think we mix). Not even sure we want to continue with all of our Ako.

Might go overweight on 4! Ajs/ats combos, based on population tendencies.

Don't think we can size much smaller than 4x - I'm thinking around 1400.

i think u can go up to 27% not to nit pick

anyways when u expect to get 3bet a lot pre why dont u shrink ur open size? u can go all thew way down to a min raise if u like. then it makes 4betting a bit cleaner too to avoid the 27% threshold.

I’ve been trying to track down the source of this heuristic for a while. Do you happen to remember where you heard about it from? Maybe an article or training video?

sizes for the 200bb 4! were 2.5bb, 11bb, 30bb

same spot at 150bb is 2.5,11,28



and 100 bb is 2,10,19 or all in

After reading most of the thread I agree that the sb flat range includes all hands he continues with given the current dynamic.

In theory, if you were facing two tough pros you wanna have a 4 bet range here especially given the sandwich spot. Intuitively this feels like: QQ+/AKs mixing 4bets-gii/calls and JJ/AKo/AQ mixing 4bets-folds/calls.
Given above, a size of 900 seems to accomplish all well.

Because of this unbalanced rec player and the assumption that the good pro has already adjusted, you wanna continue only thru calls. Ofcourse my opinion is now well calibrated after reading the thread so I admit I cheated. Very interesting spot

I agree that a good pro cold calling is a much stronger range than a random fish cold calling with exactly 88-JJ/AQs

Which is why we need no 4b range w a spot IP 3b and a real player cold calling the SB is horrible and you should all stop worrying about 27% thresholds and 4b fold ranges. It’s a fkning luxury to continue with so many calls - I mean literally out entire opening range is going to want to call and play IP against a strong range remaining wide with (why do I have to repeat myself) great relative position (lol we’re sandwiched?? The good pro is in a trouble spot automatically but also cannot overplay his hand pre). You cannot pass up this spot.

I mean it’s just so predictable, we overplayed the spot (with TT this time), target folds, we get back-fkcd and hand the good pro 1k. ITS SO BAD JESUS, I mean what’s gonna happen best case scenario? Spot calls 1k and pro is forced to over call? Not even considering the LJ here btw, doesn’t matter, but it just makes a 4b worse.

Is best case scenario the spot just folds and so do the others when you have TT??

Wtf is going on. Sandwiches and heuristics and 4bf ranges live. Ok folks.

i agree with continuing with mostly calls here, but if we do happen to have AA why would we flat and play OOP vs. 3 mystery hands when we can just take it down or get called by worse. Yeah it potentially turns our hand face up and wins the minimum, but seems like good pro decided to do that with a 5-bet when he could've flatted and gone heads up, I'm not raising TT but probably AA and some AK at the minimum. You still haven't offered any reasons for why flatting AA specifically is better than raising it. It wins more money when we hold, but risks our whole stack against 3 different hands. I'm comfortable never having a 5-bet range, but when someone cold calls out of the SB, and we are gonna bring a 4th person into the hand, I think it's pretty clear to have a 4-bet range there, even when "pro had adjusted" maybe he just has 99-AA AK or even stronger than that, but if his read was we are gonna 4-bet too often we should at least do so with the nuts. What are you really gaining by flatting with AA that isn't accomplished by flatting KK QQ. are you saying KK and QQ somehow find a snap muck to our 4-bet? or that V1 and V2 never have those hands? I'm not convinced.

not to mention, if pro knows his range is very strong, can't he just find some leads ands make us monkey in the middle?

You prob CAN only raise AA only bc the spot is unique, but again, you’re just maxing out FE w the only 4b you have with the nuts which seems extra terrible.

Also important to remember there is no entitlement to winning bc you’re dealt AA, in this case, the good pro made the second max with AA bc HE didn’t have a raising range, I’m certain he had the nuts given the action - he played his range better than we did.

All of this is what I’m talking about, BELLS HAVE TO GO OFF, when the good player cold calls a shot-taker utg open and a short stack spot 3bets, instead, we’re trying to find 4b fold ranges? Huh? It’s a range call for us and a ridiculously profitable slot against a low spr fish.

+1

I think V2 SB has wide range. Wants to play in pot vs V1 LAG fish.

No way not w this action from SB

And when we continue he’s dead, and if he has air-type hands and fish continues then what? The fish presence and setup of this hand forces him to play a value heavy range. This is not that difficult Jesus Christ.

Amanaplan, you may appreciate this because, as I just realized, you were involved in this former thread.

The villain in the current thread is the same LAG from this thread: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...layer-1794055/

It’s the guy who ran some wild bluff against me with 43o a year ago, and has a reputation for playing wild, especially in “smaller games”.

Maybe this explains why I had the inclination (likely misplaced) to fight back against this player preflop.

It does seem that this guy is more likely to make bad plays postflop, and he isn’t going to stack off too light preflop. So your hypothesis may be right that we should be looking to see flops with this guy rather than getting into marginal preflop wars.

I think my 4bet here came from the mindset of “taking a stand” because this guy had been abusing me on my left in they previous match. Probably some form of tilt in my thought process there.

Of course the most significant problem for me here seems to be that I failed to adjust to the PRO and spewed off 50 bigs with a very marginal hand.

You nailed it. This explains the leak in my thought process to a tee.

My mistake, I read the stacks as hero having the 2.2k, and I see that was the LAG so now your fold definitely makes sense. And the other comments about flat calling with range make more sense as a way of letting the LAG make postflop mistakes with a shorter stack

Yea rem this vividly, cool to repost/hear it’s same guy.

I think maybe your process is just evolving, not off. You likely should recall the 43 hand, and ‘taking a stand’ is also part of it…. My posts are about making sure you add in the context above all things. Not that you DONT do that, just this time it was a full override … again, at risk of sounding repetitive, that override is ~> I open early, whale 3b/stack 2k/short, pro takes adjusted action from SB (alarm bells)… and from there the whale dynamic overrides.

Look I easily can be way off, and the just call AA strategy (for both you utg and pro sb) is not anything new, but it just seems to hold water as the prime directive for playing live pots with whales, ordinary range play means a lot less/makes a lot less.

Enjoyed reading through this. Can’t wrap my head around v2 not 4 betting with AK oop vs the lag and you still to act. AK oop with 475 already in the pot just screams 4 bet. When you 4 bet he has to expect you to be calling his Allin almost always. I can see him trapping with AA and KK in this spot if it goes to a flop after the 3 bet. He’s got to feel pretty comfortable seeing a flop holding either hand as he can easily fold kk if an ace hits the board and win a massive pot with a good flop.