5/10/25

In Texas, game is relatively good with 3 pros and 4 rec players. Happy with my table position: I am seated directly to the left of the two more dangerous pros, and directly across from an active LAG.

V1 is the active LAG. He seems too wide in most spots. I’ve seen him open KTo from UTG and 3bet J8s/K5s in LP versus MP opens. We have played one 4-hour session before this, and he seemed to have it out for me. I think he 3bet a third of my dozen or so opens in the previous session. My assumption is that Vil is taking hands that would be reasonable to play as 3bet or fold, and he 3bets these hands too often. In that sense he lacks self control. So IOW my read is that his hand selection isn’t necessarily off, but his 3bet frequencies are OOL.


V2 is a good live pro. TAG. He plays up to 50/100. This is the first time we played together. No reads. He knows V1 very well.

Hero: TAG image. People know my regular game is 2/5 and they probably assume I’m going to take more passive lines due to this being a big game for me.

V1: $2.2k
V2: $5k
Hero: $5k

Hero opens UTG (7-handed) to $75, LJ flats, V1 3bets to $325, V2 flats in the SB, blind and straddle fold, action on Hero.

My question is: What range do you assign to V2, what is the bottom of your 4bet range, and what size would you use for a 4bet?

4betting one of the 3 pro's at the table to 700 with AQo and a 2200 dollar stack is awful, you would have to call off a jam. Just fold pre in that hand.

V2 is gonna be wide here when flatting the LAG so it's not only any PP but other hands can be mixed in.

Sorry, I ninja deleted that hand history, because I realized it occurred before V2 came to the table, so not really relevant.

I’ll repost here, anyway.

50% VPIP rec whale opens in MP to $75, pro (not V2) 3bets to $275 (he 3bets larger here because whale doesn’t fold to 3bets), I 4bet to $700 off a $2.2k stack.

Both whale and pro snap folded. Pro flashed a king, so I guess he had KQ/KJ.

I 4bet here because pro can be as wide as KQo/any suited broadways in this spot, due to whale.

I am folding to a jam from the pro because I think he only gets it in with JJ+,AK,A5s, and I don’t have enough equity to call versus that range.

You can't put in a third of your stack pre only to fold to a raise, that should be the main take away from that previous hand. You can 4bet/fold for under 25% of your stack but it still leaves a low SPR going forward in the hand anyway which often leaves you with an all-in or fold decision ott with ace high.

Given description of both V1 and V2 my read is that V2 thought he was playing a bigger game and he was calling an open, not a 3bet.

This is a derail but I do see what you’re saying. I thought stack sizes left enough room to 4bet/fold, but you could be right. I had heard that the rule of thumb was not to raise off a third of your stack. But maybe that’s wrong and 25% is the cutoff. I did size down quite a bit on my 4bet size due to the uncomfortable stack sizes.

There is also a live dynamic in this spot: I think pro is raising v wide to iso the whale and overfolding versus me because I have a tight image. So I think I’m printing in this spot because the pro is gonna usually fold every suited Broadway combo and AJo/KQo, and he’s not gonna play back at me too much given the dynamic at play.

Yeah, I was quite puzzled by the V2 cold call. This 5/T/25 is the biggest game that runs daily in my room. So it’s the “regular” game for V2. He only plays bigger occasionally AFAIK.

My question is what to do with marginal pocket pairs like TT/JJ in this spot. Continue as a flat or 4bet? If 4betting, what size should I use?

Yeah it really feels like a 4bet or fold spot for V2, so his call is really strange. If I had to guess it's prob a lot of middle pocket pairs, maybe some AQ type hands? Idk, AQs feels like a pretty slam dunk 4bet and AQo feels like a pretty slam dunk fold tbh.

I think the bigger issue for this particular decision point is less about V2's range and more about how his call ****s with 4bet sizing relative to V1's stack. There isn't really an amount you can 4bet to that'll give you a comfortable fold should V1 go allin. Like even raising $700 will have you calling $1500 to win like $3250, so over 2 to 1. So with that in mind I'd prob develop a 4bet range built around maximizing FE, so like $1150 or so. TT would prob be my cutoff for that, though if you're playing a tighter UTG range than normal because of V1 then you could prob make JJ the cutoff.

I would think that pro, to be able to cold call the 3-bet from there would have to at least have some traps against your 4-bet range. I would think his range is weighted more heavily towards 88-QQ, some AQ AK and a few KK+ trapping hands. I'd be pretty confused about this spot, probably just going to 4-bet with nuts or bluff, AA, some KK, AKs maybe some A5s. Would size to 1200 I'd be wanting to protect our flats with some KK as well, you can sort of have position post flop by checking to the aggressor who seems to have a high c-bet frequency? and you'll get to see what pro does facing that bet. I'm not gonna 4-bet TT or JJ or AQ, I'd flat those and others and try to play position vs. pro hoping V1 C-bets alot. Maybe that's too tight, and doesn't exploit the cold call enough. Taking the lead in the hand and betting into two players seems dangerous without a very strong range though. I'd be interested to hear what your thoughts about this are.

This is more or less what I was thinking for V2s range. I don’t think he’s flatting 22-77 nearly at all. I agree he can have some traps of AA. I think he usually 4bets KK, and probably QQ as well. I think he should usually 4bet AQs to force me to 5bet/fold AK/QQ and isolate versus the LAG.

So his flat range looks like 88-JJ, some AA, and some AKo/AKs/AQs that he decided not to 4bet.


V1 LAG is definitely the type to over cbet heads-up. If I flat pre I expect the LAG to tighten up and play pretty straightforward post due to the multi-way nature. So he shouldn’t be going wild and range betting 622 or anything.

I feel fine 4betting AK/QQ+ in this situation.

I think I pure flat AQs,and muck AQo with the occasional 4bet.

Grunch from a small stakes fish

V2 range is tough for me because I really disagree with V2 having a flat range oop here. You are solid TAG opening UTG with a LAG 3betting IP. This is 4! or fold for me because the chance of you 4!ing is really high plus I'll be squeezed between you and him on the flop when we both check and he bets. I also think the range of hands people feel the urge to flat here with is really narrow which almost turns it face up: AQs/o, JJ, TT.

My gut 4bet range is JJ+, AKs/o, AQs/o, A5s. Maybe more if I have a read that V1 is bored at the moment.

The 4bet size situation kinda sucks because $750 or $800 are giving pretty good odds to continue and the flop SPR will be awful and you'll be oop vs 2 players because there's not many V2 folds if V1 flats the 4!. After thinking about it I like sizing up as an exploit. His range is too wide and V2's range is too capped to take a big 4! once V1 folds. Rip the $1k 4bet!

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I think SB has mod pockets and suited A broadway type hands...probably AQo too.

I'm flatting 1010, AKo and AQss, 4 betting JJ+ and AKss

4 bet size is 1100 ish


LJ is in the hand too btw....can he be flatting KK and AA here?

Just call pre dude. It's a fantastic setup for you where flops go check check to the spot and the pro is immediately in a spot were he has to have value. You'll position on the pro and be able to play well against the spot - you don't need to flop a set to win.

I understand there is likely an aversion to calling a spot like this because who wants to just call pre, but the dynamic here that the better pros will have a lot more strong (just) calls here bc he isn't as interested in 4betting a spot where he isos the best of your range/blows the whale out of the water at the same time. I mean, you're talking him up as a good pro and he just cold-called from the SB right? That should tell you that his range is extremely strong, 4b down to 77 is super gross. You should have AA as a call w the same frequency as 77.

Just read above how guys are talking about their 4b ranges, laughably strong, face up. Not saying you're doing that here (you're not you clicked 77), but there is a live adjustment in strategy that I would be making here, as stated above.

I’m not sure how horrendous my play is here, but the results were definitely very bad.

I 4! TT to $1200, V1 folds, and V2 jams. I fold.

Table seemed to think V2 had AK, though he did not reveal. I think V2 can have AA here as well.

My rationale for raising was just that I wanted to mix in some lighter 4bets to discourage V1 from 3betting me so light.

In the moment I failed to appreciate how many strong hands V2 can have in this spot. Was surprised to see the jam. Really expected him to fold.

I think I should probably have gone more polar in this spot, flatting TT and even possibly JJ, and use a hand I can’t flat like AQo as a light 4bet.

Feels like a wasted opportunity where I could have just called to see a flop. Like amana and SetsOfNines note, the hand plays straightforwardly postflop, and ranges are wide enough that I don’t need to flop a set to win.

Seems like v2 knew exactly what was going, didnt even 4bet his nutted hand risking you and Lj to see a cheap flop.

V2 knew your range should be somewhat strong and you’d probably 4bet way too often, beautifully played by v2.

This makes no sense once v2 cold calls the 3bet with v1 having only 2.2k, v2 isn’t weak in this spot ever. I’d be 1000x more worried about v2 then v1’s light 3bet

Yeah I agree my thought process in game was off. I falsely assumed that V2 would fold a significant majority of the time. Basically I went into the game with the mindset that I needed to work in more light 4bets versus V1, and then did not adjust to the developments in the hand.

In retrospect, I still have questions about how to construct my 4bet range in this spot.

Due to awkward stack sizes, I think I want to go around $1k-$1.2k and stack off every hand in my 4bet range versus V1 5bet/V2 fold. With this 4bet sizing, this part seems clear to me — if V1 jams I should be getting direct odds to call with every hand in my range.

I can have some 4bet/folds in the event that V2 jams. Some questions about that:

1. Is it safe to 4bet/GII with QQ+ in this scenario?

2. What should I do with AK in the event I 4b and V2 jams?

3. I think it is clear that if I choose to make a blocker play and mix in some 4bets with AQo/ATs (bottom of my UTG Ax open range), then I should fold those hands facing a jam.

4. Should I always flat JJ versus the 3b? If I do flat the likely scenario is that LJ calls as well, and we go 4ways to the flop.

LJ is a rec who is probably VPIPing too wide. I’m not so concerned about him having AA/KK here. He probably does call too wide if we flat. I also don’t remember his stack size unfortunately.

Not wanting to pile on, as I don't sit in games of these stakes.... I'm trying to wrap my head around 4b/folding for $1000 more to win $3800. V2 would have to have almost all JJ+ which I don't know we can be sure is the case. Could even be an AQs that decided to see how things develop.

I think the awkwardness stems from not being able to comfortably put in the last raise with your <100bb stack. Seems like a pip too weak to put in the 4b with v2 making a strong looking flat oop.

There's a counterpoint that shot takers can overcompensate to avoid being pushed around. Especially if you have been getting pushed around more recently.

There is no way you need to have a 4b range in this setup. You should have zero raises I promise once the SB cc and the spot isn't deep. Gameflow trumps all of this, and as archaic as that statement sounds, it still holds true.


I will add, excellent fold pre, not joking. SB as described (against your perceived image as described PLUS the whale dynamics as discussed) has exactly AA. If he had KK he would tank call your 4b. AK likely folds.

This is the kind of 4-bet range I'm picturing

this is simply how GTO wizard plays 6max UTG open vs. SB 3-bet 200bb deep, I would drop the KQs and other 4-bet bluffs besides AK and just 4-bet AA, some KK and at least enough AK to make kings indifferent, or I think you could add enough of your best Ax blockers to make QQ indifferent instead. It looks to me like using nut/bluff strategy is what it's going for, and is preferring to bring a wide range of hands to the flop as a call. I think with the price you are getting, going 4-ways, this 200bb range has comparable incentives, bringing some KK and the rest of your AK to the flop as a call along with the rest of your board coverage is a solid range to play in this spot imo. I don't really see the need to also flat AA and give 3 different hands a look at the flop when we can just, at the worst take down 725$ and best case stack off vs. V1 or V2. I can't really understand having 0% 4-bet range, i'll admit i'm a noob but I'm pretty sure that's not best, I don't think the value of bringing AA to the flop, when we will have some KK, QQ, a range of sets and other 2-pair + hands across different boards, is enough to out way the chance to stack off as 80% favorite or take it down with our Ax bluffs.

I agree I shouldn’t have any folds versus V1, but it was V2 who jammed for 5k effective. I think I need like 36% equity to call off on the end. Whether I have that with TT is up for debate — it depends on whether V2 only has AK/AA (and what relative frequencies he chooses to not 4bet these hands) and whether he can have some QQ-KK as well. It is obv hard to estimate pot odds when we don’t know the villains range.

Anyway, TT is close to the bottom of my range and villain is risking a lot to win not so much (risking 4.7k to win 2k), so I can feel safe to fold a lot versus his jam and not expose myself.

Yeah, the fold pre is the only part I think I played well.

I talked to a friend later and he said that he thinks V2 pro doesn’t have 22-77 at all in this spot. So his range is likely 88+ and some good suited Broadway Ax hands and AKo. It is up for debate how much QQ-KK he has, I do believe he’s not gonna want to take those hands 4ways from the worst position at the table, so he likely 4bets those hands?

LAG is way OOL with his 3bets here, like I think he has J9s/KTs/KQo in this spot. Which is way too wide versus a UTG open.

However, LAG is not an idiot. He’s a reg at 50-100 too. He’s not going to cbet flop with any two cards 4ways. He’ll probably blast flop with his TPTK+ and good draws. IOW I don’t see him making significant errors postflop. Like, he’s going to check flop at fairly high frequency. Which should increase incentive for V2 to 4bet QQ/KK, I think.

Woah, very cool thanks.

This is way tighter than what I’d imagined for this spot for the UTG 4bet range.

I’ve been reflecting on why I’m surprised at how tight this is.

Several points I’d considered, and I have no idea how accurate this is. But:

1. At high SPR spots (like 200bb effective stacks with the standard sizings) it does make sense that we don’t want to commit with QQ.

2. Heads-up we may be incentivized to mix strong hands like KK into our flatting range because we need to protect our range for postflop play.

Re point 1, it’s a bit misleading to think about this spot as 200bb effective heads-up because the multi-way nature of the hand has really inflated the pot size and decreased the SPR. My open was 3x, the 3bet was 4x (due to dead caller between), and my hypothetical 4bet size is another 4x (due to another cc). 3x4x4=48bb for my 4bet size. I presume the 4bet size is in your GTO sim is for far fewer big blinds that, so IOW the SPR is higher in the sim, which might affect (lessen?) the 4bet frequency. To me this is looks like a hybrid between 100bb and 200bb, and I’m not sure what the best analogue would be.

About point 2, I think the more multi-way a hand the more inclined one should be to increase the raise frequency and tighten the continue range. This is a very loose heuristic which I remembered from a coaching site years back.

Quick questions for you:

In your sim, I see its for a 2.5x open and 4.5x 3bet. What’s the 4bet sizing though? I don’t see it displayed anywhere.

For comparison, can you post the UTG range at 100bb and/or 150bb effective? I am wondering whether the 4bet frequency increases and if so by how much.

Will do when I’m back home