Pre is whatever, i think checking your option is better against 2 guys that will never fold to you pre and post.

Def bet bigger on turn- understand your points but balance/perceived range doesn't seem too important against these two villains. Gotta just bet our hand/get max value on this street.

I'd be pretty happy getting all the money in here. Esp, given your smallish sizing on turn, villain may be overplaying two pair hands. Also, given your supposed absurd image, doesn't seem close at all. There are other player types who I would advise calling>3betting turn, but you don't seem like the case.

Come onnnnnnnnn. Even if these villains are thinking on a level that makes this matter, with your images (long and short term, but especially the latter) do you really think they're going to interpret big sizing on the turn as less bluffy, and not you setting up a bigger river barrel to get them off their one-pair hands that get to the river?

That's all with the very generous assumption that they're not just looking down at their hand and deciding what to do on an emotive level

Make it 7300

I'm in the ship all in camp. I think it is a lot better than calling for the reasons neverscaredb already mentioned.

on the flop you could thinking oo mamma or also ooo shnickes

1) flush card coming in on turn 18%
2) lots of random potential straight draws and based on descriptions {4,6,7,9,T,Q} 24%
42%

Unfortunately you got one of dem tough cards. Luckily 58% you will have turned gin and any worries will go away. Now you got some tough action facing you, only thou shall know what to do.

He doesn't fold if he has two pair. He likely has top pair/any kicker at this point. I think he would have raised my small flop or turn bet with a fd. He might have just shipped flop with any fd tbh. Not ruling fd completely out though obv.

The bulk of V2's 2300 range is a straight imo (he's goofy af obv, but I never said he was aggro/anything but your standard passive 5-10 rec player who happens to be sitting in a wild game with a bunch of money). Not sure shipping makes a ton of sense against him/his range?

Also, if I feel like I'm drawing to a boat (mostly) and V1 doesn't have 2 pair, why would I want to discourage him from putting a bunch more in/significantly increasing my pot odds?

(these were my thoughts in the hand, not saying they were right, def looking forward to rereading neverscaredb and co's posts after some time passes/I get some sleep)

Also looking forward to re-reading this after some good sleep (I'm on a bender currently). You want to 1.5 flop though??? I mean I get that in a hu pot or if V1 was in position, but I'm struggling with that here a little.

And to answer your question, I'm really just check/folding when I flop nada in this spot.

I would have bet turn bigger if a major draw (as well as a gutshot + over) didn't just get there. I was pot controlling in that a raise would be callable with reasonable stacks behind, whereas if I bomb and run into those hands they are just shipping and I'm making a super thin/gross call with one card to come.

Does ^^^ + my previous post about not wanting to shut out V1 by shipping over the 2300 make sense? Or was I just being a little beyotch cuz I'm running bad ?

Haha, point taken. Turn sizing was more for pot control than balance/range width, but yeah, if I had Q9 or 97 then 540 would have been pretty horrific (maybe it wasn't so good with 55).

Anyone else pot controlling this turn with smallish sizing?

I lol'd. Thanks redfin, and sorry about using the "V1/V2" labels (that tilts you iirc?), just an old habit.

What's your line if you don't mind?

seems like a nice exploitable adjustment. we can call the raise cheaper and also soulread the situation better. especially since few players are capable of thinking he bet on small-ish side and he usually would bet larger with xyz. the ones that are you obv want to be careful but seems like slam dunk the best gameplan as far as i know (not a lot)


edit-- for what I do

i think check and bet strategy both have merit ott based on how you perceive everything. overall, I am thinking check in general though but could be a little bias in that answer. these spots you got to be careful because if you aren't playing sharp you might just end up losing a very big pot and hating life (...at least for rest of session)

if this happens then its obv an easy fold. again V2 is the one pushing the action here so you should be most worried abt him.

i just don't understand anyone saying a turn ship is the best play here. your shutting out V1 from the hand by doing so and V2's range is just so nutted here w/ his sizing. getting in 350bb's in at a live game w/ bottom set w/ this action (w/ one of the worst turn cards) is pretty bad imo even against a fish.

by calling it keeps everyone in and you never fold the best hand on the river tbh (since its multiway and the pot is huge). V2 might even ck back JT/any 2pair on the river if it bricks and now you get to scoop a nice pot.

this hand is a real good example of the importance of protecting your stack vs your hand imo.

thx

So yeah, I called the 2300 and V1 snap shipped and V2 snap called.

You would really fold a set with ~ 19k in the middle??? How can this be an easy fold at this price?

Agree with most of this. Getting it in on turn is pretty bad IMO.

I guess if you think vs folds 2p to a shove, or v1 overcalls with QJ, or something of the like, we can just call turn.

Looks close to me:

Math assuming it's exactly 8k/8k/7.5k
If they both turn over straights or straight/fd you have 23.8% equity, gotta call off your last 5340 to win a total pot of 23500 needs 22.7%, about breakeven, it'll tip one way or another depending on the ratio of: a)we have fewer outs (9/4/1 when one has straight, other has combo/top2/higher set) or b)we're actually ahead.

a) our equity is closer to 10%
b) if they both have 2pair we're 88%, if they have 2pair and 910dd we're 57%, so overall our equity when ahead is somewhere between those extremes, maybe 70%? Depends on the more detailed breakdown.

So our equity improves from breakeven if P(a)/P(b) < 3.5, so is it?

Seems like an easy call. V2 has you beat but all you need to do is beat v1 to profit in the hand. As for shipping over the 2300, I'm not sure if that's even better then folding. I'm sure he's a bad player, but even bad players won't usually get 7.5k in with less then j10 here or maybe some kind of combo draw. Also possibly shutting out v1 is very bad as well.

One of the players really need to overplay their 2-pair hands/draws constantly for this to be a call, other one sometimes as well. This is somewhat disgusting fold especially if you can't remove higher sets completely.

let me know if this if off--
if opponents stacks are 8k/7500 effective and both getting all in. its going to cost 5.3k more to win a final pot of 23.5k. need to be good ~23% of time. i would find it quite odd for 88/JJ in either of their range but rather suprised if niether had a straight. so you basically need enough equity to beat a straight.


board: jd8d5cts
Hand Equity Wins Ties
55 22.16% 117 0
Qx9x 77.84% 411 0

And I think 55 is good a non negligent amount at showdown that would at the very least not make it an easy fold.



other random thoughts--
-value in playing these spots super cautious (i.e. checking turn) is to avoid spots exactly like this where we face heavy action
-there is potential merit in exploring larger sizing on the flop but for most part I dont like how that makes me split up my range when I am not betting large (just as overall strategy)
-potential merit in going for a checkraise otf if these players are not passive and capable of stabbing wide, you should be perceived to be able to cr much wider then sets+
-after you cr flop you can potentially check a lot of different turn cards (and then they will be really confused) and might do something further stupid ...but i am getting ahead of myself and this might not even be the case

Results:



fwiw

Looks like the villain descriptions were accurate, hope you held

so jamming turn when v2 raises was better? if v2 has 2pairs in his raising range he's never folding to a jam, and v1 hero calls thin all day, seems like too many river cards will bring a halt to action one way or another by just calling turn.

not trying to be results oriented or anything, but trying to figure out if a call or jam on initial turn raise is best. obviously folding is not an option at this point but it becomes one if we just call and get to river 3way with stacks left behind. and i dont ever want to fold to these described villains.

if calling or jamming turn is close, jamming seems to make life easier. whats more likely, that your turn call induced v1's jam or v1 calls off your turn jam with any J+gutter? either way i hope u held.

All the old ladies are staring at me laughing as I'm in line at wegmens.